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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="Rudy#2467" data-user-id="517049944885166091">Rudy</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 10:00 AM</span>
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                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve"><img loading="lazy" class="chatlog__emoji " alt="👋" title="wave" src="files\twemoji_1f44b.svg"> Hello, and welcome to Fishbowl Day 8! <img loading="lazy" class="chatlog__emoji " alt="🐟" title="fish" src="files\twemoji_1f41f.svg"> <img loading="lazy" class="chatlog__emoji " alt="🥣" title="bowl_with_spoon" src="files\twemoji_1f963.svg"> 8️⃣ 

<strong>Topic: How software development is taught</strong>
❗ Idea Source / Discussion Context: <a href="https://github.com/AsafGartner/hmn_fishbowl/discussions/35" target="_blank">https://github.com/AsafGartner/hmn_fishbowl/discussions/35</a>
<img loading="lazy" class="chatlog__emoji " alt="🎧" title="headphones" src="files\twemoji_1f3a7.svg">  Relevant additional context: <a href="https://handmade.network/podcast/ep/eeac46c9-5e90-4b1c-9104-cff49734764d" target="_blank">https://handmade.network/podcast/ep/eeac46c9-5e90-4b1c-9104-cff49734764d</a></span>

                            <span class="chatlog__edited-timestamp" title="17-Jun-21 10:01 AM">(edited)</span>
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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="Rudy#2467" data-user-id="517049944885166091">Rudy</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 10:01 AM</span>
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                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve"><img loading="lazy" class="chatlog__emoji " alt="👉" title="point_right" src="files\twemoji_1f449.svg">  Please read over the discussion context if you haven't already. It is recommended that you also listened to the <a class="inserted-after" href="https://handmade.network/podcast/ep/eeac46c9-5e90-4b1c-9104-cff49734764d" target="_blank">podcast</a> as some of this was explored a bit by <span class="chatlog__markdown-mention" title="demetrispanos#5588">@demetrispanos</span> and <span class="chatlog__markdown-mention" title="ryanfleury#4528">@ryanfleury</span> , though if you haven't that's alright too. 

A few goals I have for this fishbowl are:

1. Discuss how formal software development education is flawed. From the podcast, we learned how societal and economic pressures have influenced universities to become this way, let's break down exactly what they're doing wrong and what they could do differently if these factors weren't a concern. For example, if professors were completely and entirely motivated on producing the best programmers they possibly could. Let's also discuss what they're doing right. 

2. Let's extend this example to other formal learning environments: Books, Online Courses, Videos, etc. What goes wrong there? What goes right?

3. Perhaps most important, and what I would like to spend the most time focusing on, are solutions. What would be a better way to train someone in software development? How does it start, what does the journeyman path look like, what about advanced learning? Be specific. 

Participants:
<span class="chatlog__markdown-mention" title="Rudy#2467">@Rudy</span> [moderating]
<span class="chatlog__markdown-mention" title="raysan5#2998">@raysan5</span>
<span class="chatlog__markdown-mention" title="demetrispanos#5588">@demetrispanos</span>
<span class="chatlog__markdown-mention" title="greensleevless#3859">@greensleevless</span>
<span class="chatlog__markdown-mention" title="ratchetfreak#1181">@ratchetfreak</span>
<span class="chatlog__markdown-mention" title="CianMc#3363">@CianMc</span>
<span class="chatlog__markdown-mention" title="bumbread27#9116">@bumbread</span></span>

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                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="17-Jun-21 10:02 AM">10:02</div>
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                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve"><span class="chatlog__markdown-mention" title="bvisness#0001">@bvisness</span> is adding roles now (thank you <img loading="lazy" class="chatlog__emoji " alt="🙂" title="slight_smile" src="files\twemoji_1f642.svg"> )</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="bvisness#0001" data-user-id="132715550571888640">bvisness</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 10:02 AM</span>
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                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">You can read adjacent conversation from <span class="chatlog__markdown-mention">#fishbowl-audience</span>, the peanut gallery, here: <a href="https://discord.com/channels/239737791225790464/708458209131757598/855128040811003966" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '855128040811003966')">https://discord.com/channels/239737791225790464/708458209131757598/855128040811003966</a></span>

                            <span class="chatlog__edited-timestamp" title="17-Jun-21 12:56 PM">(edited)</span>
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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="Rudy#2467" data-user-id="517049944885166091">Rudy</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 10:06 AM</span>
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                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Feel free to kick it off with anything relevant to the discussion, or directly addressing the first question via your experience. I am especially excited to hear your perspective, <span class="chatlog__markdown-mention" title="raysan5#2998">@raysan5</span> as if I'm not mistaken, raylib was born out of the lack of a better way to teach students proper programming concepts in an interesting and fun way</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="raysan5#2998" data-user-id="427495923955007491">raysan5</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 10:07 AM</span>
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                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Maybe we could introduce ourselves and how we are connected with the topic?</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="Rudy#2467" data-user-id="517049944885166091">Rudy</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 10:07 AM</span>
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                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Sure, that would be great!</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="raysan5#2998" data-user-id="427495923955007491">raysan5</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 10:12 AM</span>
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                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I'm an Electronic Engineer and I've never had formal Computer Science education (despite I've studied several related subjects in the University). For the last 10 years I've been working in Videogames Development education, at different levels, teaching undergraduate courses and also as University lecturer. Most of the subjects I've taught have been related to Programming and Projects development. I've also been a point-of-contact for companies looking for interns.</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="CianMc#3363" data-user-id="326031207278313473">CianMc</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 10:13 AM</span>
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                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Hi guys, I'm Cian, I am a recently graduated Computer Science student. Entering into university after leaving school, it became clear pretty quickly that the course didn't quite line up with what I thought it would be, sometimes for the better and sometimes not. While I do think Computer Science departments do a lot right, they also get a lot wrong, regarding things like how they advertise the course(as mentioned on the podcast by <span class="chatlog__markdown-mention" title="demetrispanos#5588">@demetrispanos</span> ), how programming is taught(or isn't lol), how external popular employment trends and buzzwords heavily influence the types of modules included, leading to fairly narrow bands of potential specialisation for students and finally how professors, being more researched oriented, can be out of touch with the practicalities of modern development</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="greensleevless#3859" data-user-id="506594138683342849">greensleevless</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 10:14 AM</span>
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                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Hi folks! I'm Peter - I've been working as a game designer at a design consultancy (happy to shed some light on the consultancy discussion from the podcast - IDEO is a bit different, but same ballpark), and I spent a good portion of the last 5 years working on using games to get kids excited/intro'd to engineering. I've also taught game development to high schoolers. And fun note: my formal education is a BFA in Illustration - never formally studied anything engineering related</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="ratchetfreak#1181" data-user-id="269884325082693632">ratchetfreak</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 10:16 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I work at an engineering bureau where I design and simulate trafficlight programs. For which I created and maintain several tools to streamline the entire process into something manageable.</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="bumbread27#9116" data-user-id="934740907385847858">bumbread</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 10:17 AM</span>
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                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">HI, i'm bumbread (haha), currently I am a 1st year CS student. Also I do like teaching programming and maths and I could become a school teacher potentially. I'm also doing a project related to education, particularly one with notes about osdev. Even though those are notes, i'm trying to format them in a way that is close to a resource that could actually teach someone who doesn't have understanding</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 10:19 AM</span>
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                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I have an academic background in computational mathematics including a PhD,  and several years experience as an academic myself before settling full time on my own professional ventures in Machine Learning and AI, where I do the relatively rare work of linking up new mathematical approaches with (IMO) high quality software design. I have taught at university and graduate school level, and done volunteer events for high school and middle school students.</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="Rudy#2467" data-user-id="517049944885166091">Rudy</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 10:21 AM</span>
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                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Hey folks I’m Rudy <img loading="lazy" class="chatlog__emoji " alt="👋" title="wave" src="files\twemoji_1f44b.svg"> - I proposed the topic and will be moderating the discussion. I work as a jack-of-all trades on our systems team at <a class="inserted-after" href="https://automattic.com/" target="_blank">Automattic</a> - we are the group responsible for the availability, performance, reliability, and security of all Automattic’s services. I’m currently focused primarily on Tumblr.com (yes that one <img loading="lazy" class="chatlog__emoji " alt="🙂" title="slight_smile" src="files\twemoji_1f642.svg"> ) I spent a long time in the Military where some of that time was served as an NEC 9502 (Instructor), I spend some time making educational videos on youtube and I earned a Bachelors and Masters Degree. My wife is also a professor at the University of Texas at San Antonio and through her, I understand many of the topics related to higher education are not necessarily specific to computer science.</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="ratchetfreak#1181" data-user-id="269884325082693632">ratchetfreak</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 10:06 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">the podcast made the case that programming should be taught in a tradeschool instead of a uni</span>

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                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="ratchetfreak#1181">ratchetfreak</div>
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                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '855131346841894983')">
the podcast made the case that programming should be taught in a tradeschool instead of a uni                                    </span>

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                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 10:07 AM</span>
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                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I might expand this to something like a "specialist school" since "trade school" has connotations (at least in the US) that maybe aren't helpful</span>

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                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="17-Jun-21 10:08 AM">10:08</div>
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                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">music school, art school, design school, architecture school, these are generally seen as equally prestigious as universities</span>

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                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="17-Jun-21 10:08 AM">10:08</div>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">but trade school (for reasons that are out of scope here) is not</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="ratchetfreak#1181" data-user-id="269884325082693632">ratchetfreak</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 10:08 AM</span>
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                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I kinda wanted to lean into some of those connotations though</span>

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                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588">demetrispanos</div>
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                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '855131776435486780')">
music school, art school, design school, architecture school, these are generally seen as equally prestigious as universities                                    </span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="ratchetfreak#1181" data-user-id="269884325082693632">ratchetfreak</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 10:08 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">but could all be called trade schools</span>

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                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="ratchetfreak#1181">ratchetfreak</div>
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                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '855131901106716704')">
but could all be called trade schools                                    </span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 10:09 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">in a platonic sense certainly, you could throw in law and medical school too</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="bumbread27#9116" data-user-id="934740907385847858">bumbread</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 10:12 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Thinking about it there are programming schools, which ~ in a sense ~ are like the music schools. The similarity is that they aren't part of the education system, and when you enroll you gotta pay</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="greensleevless#3859" data-user-id="506594138683342849">greensleevless</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 10:22 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I thought the podcast discussion about universities existing across this gap of "centers of aggregated knowledge" &lt;-&gt; "human capital factories" was really interesting. How do you see specialist schools differing / why would they avoid the pitfalls of existing higher ed?</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="ratchetfreak#1181" data-user-id="269884325082693632">ratchetfreak</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 10:23 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">my biggest peeve with the programming education that I was given at uni is that many concepts that I consider important were never mentioned. 

For example the main <a class="inserted-after" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Event_loop" target="_blank">event loop</a> and how gui frameworks can deal with them, and how to interact with them through those abstractions (rule number one: never block). I had to figure that out on my own.</span>

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                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '855135401114337320')">
Nice!
Jumping back up to the conversation that started ^pre intros^ - I thought the podcast discussion about universities existing across this gap of "centers of aggregated knowledge" &lt;-&gt; "human capital factories" was really interesting. How do you see specialist schools differing / why would they avoid the pitfalls of existing higher ed?                                    </span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 10:24 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">the "HCF" view is explicitly the view taken by music schools, architecture schools, and so on</span>

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                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="17-Jun-21 10:24 AM">10:24</div>
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                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">they exist to create good musicians and architects</span>

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                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="17-Jun-21 10:24 AM">10:24</div>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve"><em>separately</em> there are music and architecture researchers in universities, and those people do things like study history and so on (there is of course overlap, and many universities have embedded music or architecture schools to facilitate this)</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="CianMc#3363" data-user-id="326031207278313473">CianMc</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 10:27 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">With trade schools, does anyone think that there could be an issue with attracting the necessary teaching talent. I agree with the concept but with such a competitive job market would it not be difficult to attract the required teaching talent?</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="ratchetfreak#1181" data-user-id="269884325082693632">ratchetfreak</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 10:28 AM</span>
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                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">there are game dev schools already, though I'm unsure as to how effective they are</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="ratchetfreak#1181" data-user-id="269884325082693632">ratchetfreak</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 10:28 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">broadening those out to general programming would be a natural step to take</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="greensleevless#3859" data-user-id="506594138683342849">greensleevless</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 10:28 AM</span>
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                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Calling back to the podcast again - seems like it could potentially fill a gap in the market - those people who are closer to generalists that couldn't find teaching gigs at universities, but who still want to teach?</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="greensleevless#3859" data-user-id="506594138683342849">greensleevless</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 10:29 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">But the matter of recognition of those institutions matters (both in a "I taught there" and as a "I learned there, give me a job" sense)</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 10:29 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve"><span class="chatlog__markdown-mention" title="CianMc#3363">@CianMc</span> makes a good point that specifically for programming, there is a huge cost problem in getting good people</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="Rudy#2467" data-user-id="517049944885166091">Rudy</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 10:29 AM</span>
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                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve"><span class="chatlog__markdown-mention" title="demetrispanos#5588">@demetrispanos</span> <span class="chatlog__markdown-mention" title="CianMc#3363">@CianMc</span> one thing to consider is the market has already tried to address this in the form of "boot camps"</span>

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                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="CianMc#3363">CianMc</div>
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                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '855136595938377759')">
With trade schools, does anyone think that there could be an issue with attracting the necessary teaching talent. I agree with the concept but with such a competitive job market would it not be difficult to attract the required teaching talent?                                    </span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="raysan5#2998" data-user-id="427495923955007491">raysan5</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 10:29 AM</span>
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                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">On my experience, trade schools are more open to professionals teaching some specific subject than at University level where usually some specific titles (as a PhD) are required to teach there.</span>

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                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="raysan5#2998">raysan5</div>
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On my experience, trade schools are more open to professionals teaching some specific subject than at University level where usually some specific titles (as a PhD) are required to teach there.                                    </span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="CianMc#3363" data-user-id="326031207278313473">CianMc</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 10:31 AM</span>
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                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">that's true, it would definitely be more attractive and open to a working professional with a Bachelors/no degree</span>

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                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '855137214416814111')">
On my experience, trade schools are more open to professionals teaching some specific subject than at University level where usually some specific titles (as a PhD) are required to teach there.                                    </span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="greensleevless#3859" data-user-id="506594138683342849">greensleevless</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 10:31 AM</span>
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                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">My experience at design school feels similar to that aspect of trade school - our teachers were often people commuting in from their ~jobs as designers/illustrators/artists/etc - they often didn't have higher degrees than the ones we were studying for, but relied on portfolios of work instead.</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="ratchetfreak#1181" data-user-id="269884325082693632">ratchetfreak</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 10:31 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">but there is still the prestige of being a programmer with the implication that it's a highly intellectual job, It isn't, not to the point of university professor doing research</span>

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                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="Rudy#2467">Rudy</div>
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                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '855137043192873012')">
<span class="chatlog__markdown-mention" title="demetrispanos#5588">@demetrispanos</span> <span class="chatlog__markdown-mention" title="CianMc#3363">@CianMc</span> one thing to consider is the market has already tried to address this in the form of "boot camps"                                    </span>

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                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="CianMc#3363" data-user-id="326031207278313473">CianMc</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 10:33 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I feel like boot camps, generally, I don't have much experience of them, try and do the bare minimum in the least amount of time to make someone "employable" without delving too much into any one subject, which is fine, but there's also a need for something like a trade school where a deeper understanding can be developed</span>

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                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="CianMc#3363">CianMc</div>
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-content">
                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '855137999221686282')">
I feel like boot camps, generally, I don't have much experience of them, try and do the bare minimum in the least amount of time to make someone "employable" without delving too much into any one subject, which is fine, but there's also a need for something like a trade school where a deeper understanding can be developed                                    </span>

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                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 10:33 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">at the risk of being provocative, I think most boot camps are either cynical or one step removed from cynicism</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 10:33 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">the idea that "anyone can be a programmer" is a real problem, and underlies the boot camp premise</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 10:34 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">it would be out of scope I think to get into boot camp economics, but if you dig into how they make money vs how recruiting companies make money you'll see a lot of overlap</span>

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                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588">demetrispanos</div>
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                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '855137033923330048')">
<span class="chatlog__markdown-mention" title="CianMc#3363">@CianMc</span> makes a good point that specifically for programming, there is a huge cost problem in getting good people                                    </span>

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                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="raysan5#2998" data-user-id="427495923955007491">raysan5</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 10:33 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I think it's very difficult for Universities to find teachers for high-technical subjects, at this moment there are many better offers out-there for those profiles than what the University can offer...</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="CianMc#3363" data-user-id="326031207278313473">CianMc</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 10:34 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Totally, along with all these courses you see advertised on youtube etc</span>

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                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588">demetrispanos</div>
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                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '855138181128388609')">
the idea that "anyone can be a programmer" is a real problem, and underlies the boot camp premise                                    </span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="raysan5#2998" data-user-id="427495923955007491">raysan5</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 10:34 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">"learn programming in 20 days" <img loading="lazy" class="chatlog__emoji " alt="😛" title="stuck_out_tongue" src="files\twemoji_1f61b.svg"></span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="CianMc#3363" data-user-id="326031207278313473">CianMc</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 10:35 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">while I feel everyone should be introduced to programming at a young age so that everyone can see if it's for them or not, the idea that just because there's a large demand for developers that everyone should consider learning it is ridiculous and inherently leads to a reduction in software quality</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 10:35 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">to steelman boot camps for a moment, I do think there's a place for a boot camp for someone like an electrical engineer who already knows (say) matlab, who just needs to be taught the basics of mainstream programming languages and databases ... but this is not the most common case for boot camps</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="ratchetfreak#1181" data-user-id="269884325082693632">ratchetfreak</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 10:36 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">you need a certain mindset for programming and I don't believe that everyone will be able to grasp it</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="Rudy#2467" data-user-id="517049944885166091">Rudy</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 10:36 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">right, more of a transitionary program</span>

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                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="17-Jun-21 10:36 AM">10:36</div>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">not 0 to software engineer</span>

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                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="17-Jun-21 10:37 AM">10:37</div>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">but, I actually do think a focused "trade school" type of program might be a good fit</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 10:37 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I think most <em>traditional engineers</em> could become programmers, that seems empirically true</span>

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                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588">demetrispanos</div>
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                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '855139001513541652')">
I think most <em>traditional engineers</em> could become programmers, that seems empirically true                                    </span>

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                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="CianMc#3363" data-user-id="326031207278313473">CianMc</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 10:38 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">There definitely is a certain shared problem solving mindset between those professions</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="Rudy#2467" data-user-id="517049944885166091">Rudy</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 10:37 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">the example I keep coming back to is music school</span>

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                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="17-Jun-21 10:37 AM">10:37</div>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">which I think is a very good fit for software development</span>

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                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="17-Jun-21 10:37 AM">10:37</div>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I have always thought programming is akin to learning an instrument</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="raysan5#2998" data-user-id="427495923955007491">raysan5</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 10:37 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve"><span class="chatlog__markdown-mention" title="Rudy#2467">@Rudy</span> Agree, it has MANY things in common!</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="greensleevless#3859" data-user-id="506594138683342849">greensleevless</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 10:38 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">It might be an interesting point of discussion to talk about how music is taught and what we can translate to how to teach programming /sw engineering</span>

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                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="17-Jun-21 10:38 AM">10:38</div>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">(potentially something to come back to)</span>

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                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="" title="greensleevless#3859">greensleevless</div>
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                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '855139419244855306')">
It might be an interesting point of discussion to talk about how music is taught and what we can translate to how to teach programming /sw engineering                                    </span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 10:39 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">one essential part of music/arch/design/art school is you spend most of your time doing the thing</span>

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                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="17-Jun-21 10:39 AM">10:39</div>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">(vs studying underlying theory about the thing)</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="Rudy#2467" data-user-id="517049944885166091">Rudy</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 10:39 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">synthesis vs analysis <img loading="lazy" class="chatlog__emoji " alt="😉" title="wink" src="files\twemoji_1f609.svg"></span>

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                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="CianMc#3363">CianMc</div>
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                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '855138695262896128')">
while I feel everyone should be introduced to programming at a young age so that everyone can see if it's for them or not, the idea that just because there's a large demand for developers that everyone should consider learning it is ridiculous and inherently leads to a reduction in software quality                                    </span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="bumbread27#9116" data-user-id="934740907385847858">bumbread</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 10:38 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I believe that everyone <em>can</em> learn to program quality software. We just don't have any teachers that would teach how to do it. Universities do not concentrate on correctness of the code too much, even though the point is spoken, the actual quality is not checked ~ the code is "tested" in the best case.</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="raysan5#2998" data-user-id="427495923955007491">raysan5</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 10:39 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve"><span class="chatlog__markdown-mention" title="bumbread27#9116">@bumbread</span> well, I think it depends on the teacher</span>

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                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="raysan5#2998">raysan5</div>
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                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '855139594588520448')">
<span class="chatlog__markdown-mention" title="bumbread27#9116">@bumbread</span> well, I think it depends on the teacher                                    </span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="ratchetfreak#1181" data-user-id="269884325082693632">ratchetfreak</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 10:39 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">and the student</span>

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                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="" title="bumbread27#9116">bumbread</div>
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                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '855139333571608587')">
I believe that everyone <em>can</em> learn to program quality software. We just don't have any teachers that would teach how to do it. Universities do not concentrate on correctness of the code too much, even though the point is spoken, the actual quality is not checked ~ the code is "tested" in the best case.                                    </span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="CianMc#3363" data-user-id="326031207278313473">CianMc</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 10:39 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">that's an interesting view, maybe those that currently excel at programming have a natural ability/are good self learners, and others who struggle could become better developers if the proper guidance and resources were available to them?</span>

                            <span class="chatlog__edited-timestamp" title="17-Jun-21 10:39 AM">(edited)</span>
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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="Rudy#2467" data-user-id="517049944885166091">Rudy</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 10:39 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve"><div class="chatlog__markdown-quote"><div class="chatlog__markdown-quote-border"></div><div class="chatlog__markdown-quote-content">We just don't have any teachers that would teach how to do it. 
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-mention" title="bumbread27#9116">@bumbread</span> <span class="chatlog__markdown-mention" title="raysan5#2998">@raysan5</span> this is what I would like to spend the bulk of the time discussing later</span>

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                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="17-Jun-21 10:40 AM">10:40</div>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">let's stay focused on the problem at hand</span>

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                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="" title="bumbread27#9116">bumbread</div>
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-content">
                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '855139333571608587')">
I believe that everyone <em>can</em> learn to program quality software. We just don't have any teachers that would teach how to do it. Universities do not concentrate on correctness of the code too much, even though the point is spoken, the actual quality is not checked ~ the code is "tested" in the best case.                                    </span>

                                </div>
                        </div>
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="raysan5#2998" data-user-id="427495923955007491">raysan5</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 10:41 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">personally, I focus way more on the soft skills that students need to actually learn programming than in advance programming concepts. For example: organization, coding conventions, focus to detail, variables naming, debugging, patience, understanding the process...</span>

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                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="raysan5#2998">raysan5</div>
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                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '855140122873036820')">
personally, I focus way more on the soft skills that students need to actually learn programming than in advance programming concepts. For example: organization, coding conventions, focus to detail, variables naming, debugging, patience, understanding the process...                                    </span>

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                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="greensleevless#3859" data-user-id="506594138683342849">greensleevless</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 10:42 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Curious: why do you say 'soft skills'?</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="greensleevless#3859" data-user-id="506594138683342849">greensleevless</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 10:42 AM</span>
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                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">or are your examples what you'd consider hard skills and you focus on other things?</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="Rudy#2467" data-user-id="517049944885166091">Rudy</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 10:42 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">everyone also learns differently</span>

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                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="" title="greensleevless#3859">greensleevless</div>
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                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '855140281653657647')">
Curious: why do you say 'soft skills'?                                    </span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="Rudy#2467" data-user-id="517049944885166091">Rudy</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 10:42 AM</span>
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                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I would also consider those hard skills</span>

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                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="17-Jun-21 10:42 AM">10:42</div>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">except things like attention to detail and patience</span>

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                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="CianMc#3363">CianMc</div>
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                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '855139612220719106')">
that's an interesting view, maybe those that currently excel at programming have a natural ability/are good self learners, and others who struggle could become better developers if the proper guidance and resources were available to them?                                    </span>

                                        <span class="chatlog__reference-edited-timestamp" title="17-Jun-21 10:39 AM">(edited)</span>
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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="bumbread27#9116" data-user-id="934740907385847858">bumbread</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 10:41 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I don't like the idea of "natural ability", nor do I believe in it. All people have different experience, e.g. some were doing painting, so naturally everyone would understand different concepts differently. Some people also can learn based on the experience.</span>

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                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="" title="bumbread27#9116">bumbread</div>
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                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '855140165844467734')">
I don't like the idea of "natural ability", nor do I believe in it. All people have different experience, e.g. some were doing painting, so naturally everyone would understand different concepts differently. Some people also can learn based on the experience.                                    </span>

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                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="CianMc#3363" data-user-id="326031207278313473">CianMc</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 10:43 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">neither do I, and maybe that's the wrong term for it, it's more probable that certain people can learn things by themselves in an unstructured in environment whereas others just need a structured/guided learning experience</span>

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                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="" title="greensleevless#3859">greensleevless</div>
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                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '855140281653657647')">
Curious: why do you say 'soft skills'?                                    </span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="raysan5#2998" data-user-id="427495923955007491">raysan5</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 10:44 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I mean, not that purely technical programming concepts but more a useful way to think to write code</span>

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<div class="chatlog__message-group">
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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="CianMc#3363" data-user-id="326031207278313473">CianMc</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 10:45 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">would that not be more a case of theoretical vs practical skills/information?</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="greensleevless#3859" data-user-id="506594138683342849">greensleevless</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 10:45 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">How do you go about teaching those things? (I'm thinking about how this relates back to the convo of music schools having students spending lots of time playing music)</span>

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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-855141107351683092" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="855141107351683092">
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                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="17-Jun-21 10:45 AM">10:45</div>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">but like, what constitutes quality practice/effort?</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="bumbread27#9116" data-user-id="934740907385847858">bumbread</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 10:46 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">You only need to teach principles and show examples. The practice is something a student has to do themselves</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="greensleevless#3859" data-user-id="506594138683342849">greensleevless</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 10:46 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Right, but ideally the institution facilitates that practice right? You have to learn how to practice too after all</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="CianMc#3363" data-user-id="326031207278313473">CianMc</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 10:46 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">In my mind, quality practice includes consistent work on some problem with some form of objective criticism and critique, by yourself or someone else</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="ratchetfreak#1181" data-user-id="269884325082693632">ratchetfreak</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 10:46 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">for example getting a new library and then figuring out how to use it based on the (somewhat lacking) docs and functions available</span>

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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-855141650074435584" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="855141650074435584">
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                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="17-Jun-21 10:47 AM">10:47</div>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">doing that with the different API paradigms would be a great help as a programmer</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="raysan5#2998" data-user-id="427495923955007491">raysan5</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 10:47 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">for example, I require my students to follow strict coding and naming guidelines, not only on the deliveries but also on the daily work; I question my students a lot about the concepts I explain, I don't want that they just believe what the teachers says</span>

                            <span class="chatlog__edited-timestamp" title="17-Jun-21 10:48 AM">(edited)</span>
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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="CianMc#3363" data-user-id="326031207278313473">CianMc</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 10:47 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">And that's one the big issues in my mind, students don't know what "good" code looks like, especially since that term has become so polluted by many accepted conventions that are taught</span>

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                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="raysan5#2998">raysan5</div>
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                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '855141696807501824')">
for example, I require my students to follow strict coding and naming guidelines, not only on the deliveries but also on the daily work; I question my students a lot about the concepts I explain, I don't want that they just believe what the teachers says                                    </span>

                                        <span class="chatlog__reference-edited-timestamp" title="17-Jun-21 10:48 AM">(edited)</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="CianMc#3363" data-user-id="326031207278313473">CianMc</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 10:48 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">that's a very good approach in my mind</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 10:48 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">one problem here is that "good" is contextual</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 10:48 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">good test-an-idea code is different from good ship-to-thousands-of-servers code</span>

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                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588">demetrispanos</div>
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-content">
                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '855141796534157332')">
one problem here is that "good" is contextual                                    </span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="CianMc#3363" data-user-id="326031207278313473">CianMc</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 10:48 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">agreed</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="Rudy#2467" data-user-id="517049944885166091">Rudy</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 10:48 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">there are some overarching practices though that can always be attributed to good code</span>

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                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="17-Jun-21 10:49 AM">10:49</div>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">for example: writing non-clever code, always writing with the next person in mind</span>

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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-855142085221154866" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="855142085221154866">
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                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="17-Jun-21 10:49 AM">10:49</div>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">code is written once and read forever</span>

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                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="Rudy#2467">Rudy</div>
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                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '855142043454144512')">
for example: writing non-clever code, always writing with the next person in mind                                    </span>

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                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 10:49 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">this is just not true for test-an-idea code though</span>

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                                <img class="chatlog__emoji chatlog__emoji--small" alt="❗" src="files/2757-5311E.svg" loading="lazy">
                                <span class="chatlog__reaction-count">1</span>
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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="CianMc#3363" data-user-id="326031207278313473">CianMc</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 10:49 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I think Casey <a class="inserted-after" href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7YpFGkG-u1w" target="_blank">talked</a> about this somewhere, that the label of "good" code needs to be objectively proven/backed up, whether that be through performance testing or some other measurable metric</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 10:49 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">and I think many many people suffer for lack of knowing "test an idea" practices</span>

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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-855142320697376778" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="855142320697376778">
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                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="17-Jun-21 10:50 AM">10:50</div>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">"find out if this is even worth doing well" is an essential task</span>

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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-855142378272718889" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="855142378272718889">
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                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="17-Jun-21 10:50 AM">10:50</div>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">and to do that time-efficiently it is often optimal to write terrible throwaway code</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="Rudy#2467" data-user-id="517049944885166091">Rudy</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 10:50 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">hard agree. I guess the problem is people tend to pipeline their "test an idea" code into production <img loading="lazy" class="chatlog__emoji " alt="🙂" title="slight_smile" src="files\twemoji_1f642.svg"></span>

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                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 10:50 AM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">yes this is an important counterbalancing weight</span>

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            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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                                <img class="chatlog__reference-avatar" src="files/89747c254631bcfd05c5c3e7141389aa-A1FB9.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588">demetrispanos</div>
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-content">
                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '855142226111102988')">
and I think many many people suffer for lack of knowing "test an idea" practices                                    </span>

                                </div>
                        </div>
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="CianMc#3363" data-user-id="326031207278313473">CianMc</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 10:51 AM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">that was a big one for me, often I would never make any progress as I thought that my first implementation had to be flawless rather than a proof of concept</span>

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<div class="chatlog__message-group" style="">
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                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/a36ccc03a4cc7476c87ddd7943b338c0-ED4AC.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="CianMc#3363" data-user-id="326031207278313473">CianMc</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 10:51 AM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">a related skill is how to then progress from that test stage to a robust piece of software</span>

                    </div>




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        </div>
    </div>
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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-855142820309499964" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="855142820309499964">
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                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/cfed2ed27b658eea282b1babeab0b3a5-AEA5D.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                        <div class="chatlog__reference">
                                <img class="chatlog__reference-avatar" src="files/a36ccc03a4cc7476c87ddd7943b338c0-ED4AC.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="CianMc#3363">CianMc</div>
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-content">
                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '855142703746777129')">
a related skill is how to then progress from that test stage to a robust piece of software                                    </span>

                                </div>
                        </div>
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="Rudy#2467" data-user-id="517049944885166091">Rudy</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 10:52 AM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">this feels like the natural solution to this</span>

                    </div>




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        </div>
    </div>
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-855142878845730816" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="855142878845730816">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="17-Jun-21 10:52 AM">10:52</div>
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">whether it's iteration or a complete reconstruction of the idea properly</span>

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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-855142616587829248" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="855142616587829248">
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            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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                                <img class="chatlog__reference-avatar" src="files/a36ccc03a4cc7476c87ddd7943b338c0-ED4AC.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="CianMc#3363">CianMc</div>
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-content">
                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '855142507214143558')">
that was a big one for me, often I would never make any progress as I thought that my first implementation had to be flawless rather than a proof of concept                                    </span>

                                </div>
                        </div>
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 10:51 AM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I suffered from this myself for a few years and I had to train myself consciously to just write the simplest and stupidest thing first</span>

                    </div>




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                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/a36ccc03a4cc7476c87ddd7943b338c0-ED4AC.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="CianMc#3363" data-user-id="326031207278313473">CianMc</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 10:52 AM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">same, but at least we're aware of it now, rather than not knowing where we went wrong <img loading="lazy" class="chatlog__emoji " alt="😂" title="joy" src="files\twemoji_1f602.svg"></span>

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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-855142763859148820" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="855142763859148820">
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                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/0-EB806.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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                        <div class="chatlog__reference">
                                <img class="chatlog__reference-avatar" src="files/89747c254631bcfd05c5c3e7141389aa-A1FB9.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588">demetrispanos</div>
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-content">
                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '855142616587829248')">
I suffered from this myself for a few years and I had to train myself consciously to just write the simplest and stupidest thing first                                    </span>

                                </div>
                        </div>
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="bumbread27#9116" data-user-id="934740907385847858">bumbread</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 10:52 AM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Still suffering <img loading="lazy" class="chatlog__emoji " alt="coolcool" title="coolcool" src="https://cdn.discordapp.com/emojis/679588332384419841.png"></span>

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            <div class="chatlog__reference-symbol"></div><img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/fb6f3fa17d55a3957d3978bf777dfb6d-EBFA8.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy"></div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    

                    




            <div class="chatlog__reference">
                                <img class="chatlog__reference-avatar" src="files/cfed2ed27b658eea282b1babeab0b3a5-AEA5D.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="Rudy#2467">Rudy</div>
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-content">
                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '855142382990131220')">
hard agree. I guess the problem is people tend to pipeline their "test an idea" code into production <img loading="lazy" class="chatlog__emoji " alt="🙂" title="slight_smile" src="files\twemoji_1f642.svg">                                    </span>

                                </div>
                        </div><div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="greensleevless#3859" data-user-id="506594138683342849">greensleevless</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 10:51 AM</span>
                    </div><div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Throwing something in from design school - the idea of a sketch is super important. It's never meant to become the final piece, just something you do to prepare for when you actually start</span>

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<div class="chatlog__message-group">
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                        <div class="chatlog__reference-symbol"></div>
                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/89747c254631bcfd05c5c3e7141389aa-A1FB9.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                        <div class="chatlog__reference">
                                <img class="chatlog__reference-avatar" src="files/fb6f3fa17d55a3957d3978bf777dfb6d-EBFA8.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="" title="greensleevless#3859">greensleevless</div>
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-content">
                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '855142636436324404')">
Throwing something in from design school - the idea of a sketch is super important. It's never meant to become the final piece, just something you do to prepare for when you actually start                                    </span>

                                </div>
                        </div>
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 10:52 AM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">right, well this brushes up on my favorite hobby horse the "plastics and metals" metaphor, which is based on how industrial product designers prototype things</span>

                    </div>




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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-855143043752919050" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="855143043752919050">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="17-Jun-21 10:53 AM">10:53</div>
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">if you can answer 50% of the questions with something that cost 1% to produce, you'd be silly not to do that</span>

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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-855143243476631592" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="855143243476631592">
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                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/fb6f3fa17d55a3957d3978bf777dfb6d-EBFA8.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="greensleevless#3859" data-user-id="506594138683342849">greensleevless</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 10:53 AM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">A related mindset is being ok with the fact that most of the time, the answers you learn are going to be "seek elsewhere" or "start over"</span>

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        </div>
    </div>
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-855143357575069696" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="855143357575069696">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="17-Jun-21 10:54 AM">10:54</div>
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">which our education system actively discourages</span>

                    </div>




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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-855143504733143081" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="855143504733143081">
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                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/a36ccc03a4cc7476c87ddd7943b338c0-ED4AC.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="CianMc#3363" data-user-id="326031207278313473">CianMc</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 10:54 AM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">very much so, failure is punished rather than encouraged</span>

                    </div>




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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-855143607404068944" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="855143607404068944">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
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                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/a36ccc03a4cc7476c87ddd7943b338c0-ED4AC.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="CianMc#3363" data-user-id="326031207278313473">CianMc</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 10:55 AM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">which leads into something I've been thinking about, mandatory, but not graded assignments</span>

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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-855143468233654272" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="855143468233654272">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
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                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/cfed2ed27b658eea282b1babeab0b3a5-AEA5D.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="Rudy#2467" data-user-id="517049944885166091">Rudy</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 10:54 AM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">maybe a better structure in formal learning would be the same assignment three times. 1. get it to "just work" 2. reconstruct it entirely with the next maintainer in mind 3. have <em>someone else</em> read and optimize it</span>

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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-855143533135265802" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="855143533135265802">
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                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/fb6f3fa17d55a3957d3978bf777dfb6d-EBFA8.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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                        <div class="chatlog__reference">
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                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="Rudy#2467">Rudy</div>
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-content">
                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '855143468233654272')">
maybe a better structure in formal learning would be the same assignment three times. 1. get it to "just work" 2. reconstruct it entirely with the next maintainer in mind 3. have <em>someone else</em> read and optimize it                                    </span>

                                </div>
                        </div>
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="greensleevless#3859" data-user-id="506594138683342849">greensleevless</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 10:55 AM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">absolutely</span>

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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-855143605530394664" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="855143605530394664">
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                        <div class="chatlog__reference-symbol"></div>
                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/89747c254631bcfd05c5c3e7141389aa-A1FB9.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                        <div class="chatlog__reference">
                                <img class="chatlog__reference-avatar" src="files/fb6f3fa17d55a3957d3978bf777dfb6d-EBFA8.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="" title="greensleevless#3859">greensleevless</div>
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-content">
                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '855143357575069696')">
which our education system actively discourages                                    </span>

                                </div>
                        </div>
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 10:55 AM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">100% very important here, schools condition you to see your performance as deviation from perfection, as opposed to deviation from failure</span>

                    </div>




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<div class="chatlog__message-group">
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-855143658227367976" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="855143658227367976">
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                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/89747c254631bcfd05c5c3e7141389aa-A1FB9.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 10:55 AM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">schools say "you start with 100 points, and you lose points for making mistakes"</span>

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                    <div class="chatlog__reactions">
                            <div class="chatlog__reaction" title="brain">
                                <img class="chatlog__emoji chatlog__emoji--small" alt="brain" src="files/487994603568496650-3FA2C.png" loading="lazy">
                                <span class="chatlog__reaction-count">3</span>
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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-855143707732213801" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="855143707732213801">
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            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="17-Jun-21 10:55 AM">10:55</div>
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            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">instead of "you start with nothing, and you <em>earn</em> points for success"</span>

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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-855143738710949898" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="855143738710949898">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="17-Jun-21 10:55 AM">10:55</div>
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">(I'm oversimplifying here but I think it's an important point)</span>

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                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588">demetrispanos</div>
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-content">
                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '855143658227367976')">
schools say "you start with 100 points, and you lose points for making mistakes"                                    </span>

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                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="greensleevless#3859" data-user-id="506594138683342849">greensleevless</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 10:56 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">The game designer in me went to "those are mechanically the same" but the perception is super important</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 10:56 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">they're not mechanically the same if the set of activities is not fixed</span>

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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-855143918243807242" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="855143918243807242">
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                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="17-Jun-21 10:56 AM">10:56</div>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">but I agree for a fixed set of activities they are formally the same</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="greensleevless#3859" data-user-id="506594138683342849">greensleevless</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 10:56 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">^ ah ok, yea - like the emphasis becomes "You got there" even if it took a while</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="Rudy#2467" data-user-id="517049944885166091">Rudy</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 10:56 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I'm trying to keep the jokes out of this but can't help my brain from typing "10 POINTS TO GRYFFINDOR" <img loading="lazy" class="chatlog__emoji " alt="😛" title="stuck_out_tongue" src="files\twemoji_1f61b.svg"></span>

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                                <span class="chatlog__reaction-count">2</span>
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                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="Rudy#2467">Rudy</div>
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-content">
                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '855143468233654272')">
maybe a better structure in formal learning would be the same assignment three times. 1. get it to "just work" 2. reconstruct it entirely with the next maintainer in mind 3. have <em>someone else</em> read and optimize it                                    </span>

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                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="raysan5#2998" data-user-id="427495923955007491">raysan5</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 10:56 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I usually provide my students with a GitHub template to work over it</span>

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                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="raysan5#2998" data-user-id="427495923955007491">raysan5</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 10:56 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Example: <a href="https://github.com/raysan5/game_project_template" target="_blank">https://github.com/raysan5/game_project_template</a></span>

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                                            <div class="chatlog__embed-title">
                                                    <a class="chatlog__embed-title-link" href="https://github.com/raysan5/game_project_template">
                                                        <div class="chatlog__markdown chatlog__markdown-preserve">raysan5/game_project_template</div>
                                                    </a>
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                                            <div class="chatlog__embed-description">
                                                <div class="chatlog__markdown chatlog__markdown-preserve">{game project description here}. Contribute to raysan5/game_project_template development by creating an account on GitHub.</div>
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                                            <a class="chatlog__embed-thumbnail-link" href="files/825b3c80-4b47-11ea-875b-0a9113507307-71D98">
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                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="raysan5#2998">raysan5</div>
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-content">
                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '855143949302759455')">
Example: <a href="https://github.com/raysan5/game_project_template" target="_blank">https://github.com/raysan5/game_project_template</a>                                    </span>

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                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="Rudy#2467" data-user-id="517049944885166091">Rudy</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 10:57 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">In this case they get the code from the instructor</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="raysan5#2998" data-user-id="427495923955007491">raysan5</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 10:58 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">they have some base code to start working with, they can use it or not, but the good thing about it is that they already have a preconfigured package for a nice delivery and presentation of the product, not only focused on the code itself</span>

                            <span class="chatlog__edited-timestamp" title="17-Jun-21 10:58 AM">(edited)</span>
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                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="raysan5#2998">raysan5</div>
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-content">
                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '855144371681624095')">
they have some base code to start working with, they can use it or not, but the good thing about it is that they already have a preconfigured package for a nice delivery and presentation of the product, not only focused on the code itself                                    </span>

                                        <span class="chatlog__reference-edited-timestamp" title="17-Jun-21 10:58 AM">(edited)</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="greensleevless#3859" data-user-id="506594138683342849">greensleevless</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 11:00 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">That's interesting - makes me think about the skill of "getting started well". Using your example to show them what that looks like, but do you ever have them then try and start on their own on follow up assignments? Is there value in that?</span>

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                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="raysan5#2998" data-user-id="427495923955007491">raysan5</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 11:00 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">by the way, the code in that template is not written by me, it was created by a previous teacher, I just tried to adapt it a little... but I was not allowed by University to adapt it to what I'd like it to be... that's probably another discussion point...</span>

                            <span class="chatlog__edited-timestamp" title="17-Jun-21 11:01 AM">(edited)</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="Rudy#2467" data-user-id="517049944885166091">Rudy</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 11:01 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">We're about an hour in</span>

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                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="raysan5#2998" data-user-id="427495923955007491">raysan5</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 11:01 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">wow! already an hour???</span>

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                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="Rudy#2467" data-user-id="517049944885166091">Rudy</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 11:02 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve"><img loading="lazy" class="chatlog__emoji " alt="😄" title="smile" src="files\twemoji_1f604.svg"> Is there anything higher learning institutions, books, training courses, i.e. existing paths to learn software development, get right?</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="ratchetfreak#1181" data-user-id="269884325082693632">ratchetfreak</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 11:02 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">they teach the theoretical well</span>

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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-855145500620488764" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="855145500620488764">
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                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="17-Jun-21 11:02 AM">11:02</div>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">though getting it down to practical code tends to be an issue</span>

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                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="ratchetfreak#1181">ratchetfreak</div>
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-content">
                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '855145436724854844')">
they teach the theoretical well                                    </span>

                                </div>
                        </div>
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="raysan5#2998" data-user-id="427495923955007491">raysan5</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 11:03 AM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">well... <img loading="lazy" class="chatlog__emoji " alt="🤔" title="thinking" src="files\twemoji_1f914.svg"></span>

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                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 11:03 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I think anything around analyzing algorithms and data structures is covered relatively well, though maybe not how to apply that analysis</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="ratchetfreak#1181" data-user-id="269884325082693632">ratchetfreak</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 11:03 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">at least I learned the theories that my uni tried to teach me</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="raysan5#2998" data-user-id="427495923955007491">raysan5</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 11:03 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I think fundamentals are usually taught well</span>

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            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="17-Jun-21 11:04 AM">11:04</div>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">(well, maybe a bit outdated sometimes)</span>

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                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="Rudy#2467" data-user-id="517049944885166091">Rudy</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 11:03 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">let's be specific</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="Rudy#2467" data-user-id="517049944885166091">Rudy</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 11:04 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">do we mean sorting algorithms? big O notation?</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="ratchetfreak#1181" data-user-id="269884325082693632">ratchetfreak</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 11:04 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">that was part of it yeah, but my courses included databases, parallel compute, operating systems, oop patterns, computer graphics, etc.</span>

                            <span class="chatlog__edited-timestamp" title="17-Jun-21 11:04 AM">(edited)</span>
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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="raysan5#2998" data-user-id="427495923955007491">raysan5</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 11:04 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Logic, Maths, Physics, Computers Arquitecture (the basis)</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="CianMc#3363" data-user-id="326031207278313473">CianMc</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 11:04 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I agree, the fundamentals are taught well generally, the only problem being that they fail to expand on this foundation</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="ratchetfreak#1181" data-user-id="269884325082693632">ratchetfreak</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 11:05 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">or tie the foundation to the theoretical and make it practical</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="CianMc#3363" data-user-id="326031207278313473">CianMc</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 11:05 AM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">yep, I have been reading/doing <a class="inserted-after" href="https://www.nand2tetris.org/" target="_blank">nand2tetris</a> lately and I love how it ties the two together</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="raysan5#2998" data-user-id="427495923955007491">raysan5</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 11:06 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">the port of those fundamentals to practice is what I think could fail...</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="CianMc#3363" data-user-id="326031207278313473">CianMc</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 11:06 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Computer Systems/Architecture can be quite a dry theoretical topic, but when combined with a practical element it becomes very enjoyable</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="Rudy#2467" data-user-id="517049944885166091">Rudy</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 11:07 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">it's probably akin to true architecture</span>

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                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="17-Jun-21 11:07 AM">11:07</div>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">learning about physics and angles &gt; actually creating something</span>

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                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="raysan5#2998">raysan5</div>
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                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '855146391143841832')">
the port of those fundamentals to practice is what I think could fail...                                    </span>

                                </div>
                        </div>
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="greensleevless#3859" data-user-id="506594138683342849">greensleevless</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 11:07 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">To be a bit provocative - and this comes from the way the question was originally phrased ("when do we switch from foundations like mathematics, algorithms and data structures to creating software") - is that I think that order is backwards</span>

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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-855146819188686869" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="855146819188686869">
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                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="17-Jun-21 11:08 AM">11:08</div>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">(this is kind of bringing what <span class="chatlog__markdown-mention" title="demetrispanos#5588">@demetrispanos</span> and I just mentioned in <span class="chatlog__markdown-mention">#fishbowl-audience</span> in here)</span>

                            <span class="chatlog__edited-timestamp" title="17-Jun-21 11:08 AM">(edited)</span>
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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="CianMc#3363" data-user-id="326031207278313473">CianMc</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 11:08 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Another thing institutions do well are labs, either where structured work is given or where it's used as a place where students can ask the professor/tutor  for help with the current assignment</span>

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                    <div class="chatlog__reactions">
                            <div class="chatlog__reaction" title="thumbsup">
                                <img class="chatlog__emoji chatlog__emoji--small" alt="👍" src="files/1f44d-B3F5F.svg" loading="lazy">
                                <span class="chatlog__reaction-count">1</span>
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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="ratchetfreak#1181" data-user-id="269884325082693632">ratchetfreak</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 11:08 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">unless they let the student BS their way out of the work of course</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="ratchetfreak#1181" data-user-id="269884325082693632">ratchetfreak</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 11:09 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">but that's more of a lead the horse to water thing</span>

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                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="ratchetfreak#1181">ratchetfreak</div>
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                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '855146947748036608')">
unless they let the student BS their way out of the work of course                                    </span>

                                </div>
                        </div>
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="raysan5#2998" data-user-id="427495923955007491">raysan5</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 11:09 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">yeap, but, again, it will depend on the teacher</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="CianMc#3363" data-user-id="326031207278313473">CianMc</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 11:09 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Yep, or what happens quite often is that the college doesn't hire enough tutors so students get very little or no 1-1 time</span>

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                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="CianMc#3363">CianMc</div>
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                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '855147120012296202')">
Yep, or what happens quite often is that the college doesn't hire enough tutors so students get very little or no 1-1 time                                    </span>

                                </div>
                        </div>
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="raysan5#2998" data-user-id="427495923955007491">raysan5</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 11:10 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">agree!</span>

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                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="CianMc#3363">CianMc</div>
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-content">
                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '855147120012296202')">
Yep, or what happens quite often is that the college doesn't hire enough tutors so students get very little or no 1-1 time                                    </span>

                                </div>
                        </div>
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="Rudy#2467" data-user-id="517049944885166091">Rudy</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 11:09 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">In my experience, and this was covered in the podcast a bit, but teaching is really an afterthought for professors</span>

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                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="17-Jun-21 11:10 AM">11:10</div>
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                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">their main focus is advancing their field through research</span>

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                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="Rudy#2467">Rudy</div>
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-content">
                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '855147244398575657')">
In my experience, and this was covered in the podcast a bit, but teaching is really an afterthought for professors                                    </span>

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                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="raysan5#2998" data-user-id="427495923955007491">raysan5</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 11:11 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">also agree... and I think that's a big problem</span>

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                                <span class="chatlog__reaction-count">1</span>
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                                <img class="chatlog__reference-avatar" src="files/fb6f3fa17d55a3957d3978bf777dfb6d-EBFA8.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="" title="greensleevless#3859">greensleevless</div>
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-content">
                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '855146696349712425')">
To be a bit provocative - and this comes from the way the question was originally phrased ("when do we switch from  foundations like mathematics, algorithms and data structures to creating software") - is that I think that order is backwards                                    </span>

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                        </div>
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="raysan5#2998" data-user-id="427495923955007491">raysan5</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 11:10 AM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">do you think fundamentals are actually conditioned by the way software is written today? should them?</span>

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                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="" title="greensleevless#3859">greensleevless</div>
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-content">
                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '855146696349712425')">
To be a bit provocative - and this comes from the way the question was originally phrased ("when do we switch from  foundations like mathematics, algorithms and data structures to creating software") - is that I think that order is backwards                                    </span>

                                </div>
                        </div>
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="Rudy#2467" data-user-id="517049944885166091">Rudy</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 11:09 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Could you elaborate</span>

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                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="Rudy#2467">Rudy</div>
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                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '855147051111940117')">
Could you elaborate                                    </span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="greensleevless#3859" data-user-id="506594138683342849">greensleevless</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 11:10 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Yea so a lot of what I've worked on was building an engagement curve for kids - how do we show them <strong>why engineering is interesting/worthwhile</strong> - and the way you do that is by letting that have perceived impact early on. We can't start by teaching them algorithms - they don't care. And I think this scales up to adults - we aren't fundamentally different from kids, we just have more experience.</span>

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                                <img class="chatlog__emoji chatlog__emoji--small" alt="catjam" src="files/791371466494050344-478D4.gif" loading="lazy">
                                <span class="chatlog__reaction-count">2</span>
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                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="" title="greensleevless#3859">greensleevless</div>
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                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '855147359604703232')">
Yea so a lot of what I've worked on was building an engagement curve for kids - how do we show them <strong>why engineering is interesting/worthwhile</strong> - and the way you do that is by letting that have perceived impact early on. We can't start by teaching them algorithms - they don't care. And I think this scales up to adults - we aren't fundamentally different from kids, we just have more experience.                                    </span>

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                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="Rudy#2467" data-user-id="517049944885166091">Rudy</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 11:10 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">love this</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="greensleevless#3859" data-user-id="506594138683342849">greensleevless</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 11:11 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">So when we're talking about how to teach people software engineering better, I think the best thing to do is to get them to the thing they care about as quickly as possible</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="greensleevless#3859" data-user-id="506594138683342849">greensleevless</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 11:11 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">because the software isn't the point when you start out right? Its about the increased capability in some other area</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="CianMc#3363" data-user-id="326031207278313473">CianMc</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 11:11 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">absolutely, it can be very obvious sometimes too, like where it's clear the professor didn't write the notes they're giving and the first time they're reading them is in the class or shortly before class lol</span>

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                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="" title="greensleevless#3859">greensleevless</div>
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                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '855147551896240157')">
So when we're talking about how to teach people software engineering better, I think the best thing to do is to get them to the thing they care about as quickly as possible                                    </span>

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                        </div>
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="raysan5#2998" data-user-id="427495923955007491">raysan5</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 11:11 AM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">and so I created <a class="inserted-after" href="https://www.raylib.com/" target="_blank">raylib</a></span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="Rudy#2467" data-user-id="517049944885166091">Rudy</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 11:11 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I learned a little bit about electricity / electronics later in life, and I bought a book to do it. Instead of teaching about the concepts in theory, each chapter started with the thing you were making/testing and it almost always blew up. then you learned about the theory of why, then you re-made it properly</span>

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                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="" title="greensleevless#3859">greensleevless</div>
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-content">
                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '855147551896240157')">
So when we're talking about how to teach people software engineering better, I think the best thing to do is to get them to the thing they care about as quickly as possible                                    </span>

                                </div>
                        </div>
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="bumbread27#9116" data-user-id="934740907385847858">bumbread</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 11:12 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">And then the possibilities are endless. You could say "hey see your program is a piece of shit. in this course I will teach you how to make this piece of shit into an actually good program"</span>

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                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="" title="greensleevless#3859">greensleevless</div>
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-content">
                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '855147551896240157')">
So when we're talking about how to teach people software engineering better, I think the best thing to do is to get them to the thing they care about as quickly as possible                                    </span>

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                        </div>
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 11:12 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">yes this also relates to programming language design, and the huge gap between when I learned basic/logo vs what people learn today</span>

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<div class="chatlog__message-group" style="">
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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 11:12 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">when I started as a kid, you just booted the thing and wrote a few lines of code and you had pixels on the screen</span>

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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-855148336503062529" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="855148336503062529">
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                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588">demetrispanos</div>
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-content">
                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '855147974253740092')">
when I started as a kid, you just booted the thing and wrote a few lines of code and you had pixels on the screen                                    </span>

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                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="bumbread27#9116" data-user-id="934740907385847858">bumbread</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 11:14 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">nowadays this thing is rarely exciting unless they have call of duty running, and IMO having that created in under an hour is a very poisonous idea</span>

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                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="" title="bumbread27#9116">bumbread</div>
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                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '855148336503062529')">
nowadays this thing is rarely exciting unless they have call of duty running, and IMO having that created in under an hour is a very poisonous idea                                    </span>

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                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 11:14 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I find that if you show kids they can do this in the browser, some are fairly interested</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="greensleevless#3859" data-user-id="506594138683342849">greensleevless</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 11:14 AM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">^ But this is exactly what things like Minecraft and Roblox are doing</span>

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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-855147898623098909" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="855147898623098909">
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                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="raysan5#2998">raysan5</div>
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-content">
                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '855147760038182973')">
and so I created raylib                                    </span>

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                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="greensleevless#3859" data-user-id="506594138683342849">greensleevless</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 11:12 AM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Ya so I'm curious what design considerations went into that?</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="greensleevless#3859" data-user-id="506594138683342849">greensleevless</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 11:13 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Like, how is the design of raylib different <strong>because</strong> its designed for this purpose - with education in mind?</span>

                            <span class="chatlog__edited-timestamp" title="17-Jun-21 11:13 AM">(edited)</span>
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                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="raysan5#2998">raysan5</div>
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-content">
                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '855147760038182973')">
and so I created raylib                                    </span>

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                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="bumbread27#9116" data-user-id="934740907385847858">bumbread</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 11:12 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Oh I forgot that you are a person who created raylib lol</span>

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                            <div class="chatlog__reaction" title="raysan">
                                <img class="chatlog__emoji chatlog__emoji--small" alt="raysan" src="files/628311664789291080-F80A7.png" loading="lazy">
                                <span class="chatlog__reaction-count">1</span>
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                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="" title="greensleevless#3859">greensleevless</div>
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-content">
                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '855147898623098909')">
Ya so I'm curious what design considerations went into that?                                    </span>

                                </div>
                        </div>
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="raysan5#2998" data-user-id="427495923955007491">raysan5</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 11:14 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Simple, I had 50h to teach art students to program games (they had never written a single line of code before)... and still I wanted that they actually wrote some code, so, I tried to create something simple and self-contained that could fit in my teaching methodology</span>

                            <span class="chatlog__edited-timestamp" title="17-Jun-21 11:15 AM">(edited)</span>
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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="raysan5#2998" data-user-id="427495923955007491">raysan5</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 11:17 AM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">sincerely, I didn't expect it to work... but students start seeing things moving on the screen connected with the code and that was VERY engaging for them</span>

                            <span class="chatlog__edited-timestamp" title="17-Jun-21 11:17 AM">(edited)</span>
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                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="raysan5#2998">raysan5</div>
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-content">
                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '855149060738646017')">
sincerely, I didn't expect it to work... but students start seeing things moving on the screen connected with the code and that was VERY engaging for them                                    </span>

                                        <span class="chatlog__reference-edited-timestamp" title="17-Jun-21 11:17 AM">(edited)</span>
                                </div>
                        </div>
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="ratchetfreak#1181" data-user-id="269884325082693632">ratchetfreak</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 11:18 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">immediate feedback on iteration is very important to keeping people engages in learning</span>

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                                <img class="chatlog__emoji chatlog__emoji--small" alt="👍" src="files/1f44d-B3F5F.svg" loading="lazy">
                                <span class="chatlog__reaction-count">2</span>
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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="ratchetfreak#1181" data-user-id="269884325082693632">ratchetfreak</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 11:15 AM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I had fun with <a class="inserted-after" href="https://www.computercraft.info/" target="_blank">computercraft</a> in minecraft</span>

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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-855148720303767582" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="855148720303767582">
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                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="17-Jun-21 11:15 AM">11:15</div>
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            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">it taught me how to use <a class="inserted-after" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coroutine" target="_blank">coroutines</a> for waiting on something instead of sleeping</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="bumbread27#9116" data-user-id="934740907385847858">bumbread</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 11:15 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I had fun building an actual computer in vanila minecraft</span>

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                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="raysan5#2998">raysan5</div>
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-content">
                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '855149060738646017')">
sincerely, I didn't expect it to work... but students start seeing things moving on the screen connected with the code and that was VERY engaging for them                                    </span>

                                        <span class="chatlog__reference-edited-timestamp" title="17-Jun-21 11:17 AM">(edited)</span>
                                </div>
                        </div>
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="greensleevless#3859" data-user-id="506594138683342849">greensleevless</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 11:17 AM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">This reminds me of something Dan Cook (from Spry Fox) <a class="inserted-after" href="https://twitter.com/danctheduck/status/1355325732008804353" target="_blank">said on Twitter</a> a few months ago - how good game design (and design more broadly) is about arranging the world to reveal value in specific places. That seems to intersect with good education as well. Is it fair to say that this is kind of how raylib facilitates education early on? How do you think about growing past that - to where you have to start dealing with externalities?</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 11:18 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">re "revealing value", there's the saying "education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire"</span>

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                                <img class="chatlog__emoji chatlog__emoji--small" alt="🔥" src="files/1f525-42B23.svg" loading="lazy">
                                <span class="chatlog__reaction-count">6</span>
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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 11:18 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">(i.e. creating some self-sustaining process in the student)</span>

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                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588">demetrispanos</div>
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-content">
                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '855149385376464967')">
re "revealing value", there's the saying "education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire"                                    </span>

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                        </div>
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="greensleevless#3859" data-user-id="506594138683342849">greensleevless</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 11:20 AM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Yep - its kind of where I was heading with thinking about growth past that initial intentionally-designed-for-education environment. Once you light that fire, does growth beyond your initial introduction kind of happen on its own?</span>

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                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588">demetrispanos</div>
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-content">
                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '855149385376464967')">
re "revealing value", there's the saying "education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire"                                    </span>

                                </div>
                        </div>
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="bumbread27#9116" data-user-id="934740907385847858">bumbread</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 11:20 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">its a great quote</span>

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                        <div class="chatlog__reference">
                                <img class="chatlog__reference-avatar" src="files/89747c254631bcfd05c5c3e7141389aa-A1FB9.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588">demetrispanos</div>
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-content">
                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '855149465290801193')">
(i.e. creating some self-sustaining process in the student)                                    </span>

                                </div>
                        </div>
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="raysan5#2998" data-user-id="427495923955007491">raysan5</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 11:20 AM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">that's it!</span>

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                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="" title="greensleevless#3859">greensleevless</div>
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-content">
                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '855149182096637963')">
This reminds me of something Dan Cook (from Spry Fox) said on Twitter a few months ago - how good game design (and design more broadly) is about arranging the world to reveal value in specific places. That seems to intersect with good education as well. Is it fair to say that this is kind of how raylib facilitates education early on? How do you think about growing past that - to where you have to start dealing with externalities?                                    </span>

                                </div>
                        </div>
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="raysan5#2998" data-user-id="427495923955007491">raysan5</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 11:20 AM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">what do you mean with externalities?</span>

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                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="raysan5#2998">raysan5</div>
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-content">
                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '855149985858322474')">
what do you mean with externalities?                                    </span>

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                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="greensleevless#3859" data-user-id="506594138683342849">greensleevless</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 11:22 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">This is where I think this discussion starts to have a ton of overlap with the HM philosophy.
So you constructed raylib in such a way that students get to impact (pixels on screen) very quickly. But the world isn't like that. Eventually you have to get them to start engaging with the existing software environment - build grit towards things like poor documentation, bad APIs, etc.</span>

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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-855150345646505994" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="855150345646505994">
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                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="17-Jun-21 11:22 AM">11:22</div>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Those are what I mean by 'externalities'</span>

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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-855150591185125466" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="855150591185125466">
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                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="17-Jun-21 11:23 AM">11:23</div>
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            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">And I'm not saying this to downplay the value things like raylib have - I think that role is possibly the most important (calling back to the 'light a fire' idea). But there are steps beyond that as well that are important too right?</span>

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                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 11:23 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">yes absolutely, but I think there's a big difference in emotional investment</span>

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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-855150732037586984" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="855150732037586984">
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            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="17-Jun-21 11:23 AM">11:23</div>
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            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">once you know that you can, in principle, do things you want with programming then you're more willing to tolerate "ok here's all the ugly stuff"</span>

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                                <span class="chatlog__reaction-count">1</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="ratchetfreak#1181" data-user-id="269884325082693632">ratchetfreak</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 11:23 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">jumping out of the sandbox into a whirlpool will kill any enthusiasm</span>

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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-855150894345224192" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="855150894345224192">
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                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="17-Jun-21 11:24 AM">11:24</div>
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            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">so your sandbox better give them the tools to survive the maelstrom</span>

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                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588">demetrispanos</div>
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                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '855150732037586984')">
once you know that you can, in principle, do things you want with programming then you're more willing to tolerate "ok here's all the ugly stuff"                                    </span>

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                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="greensleevless#3859" data-user-id="506594138683342849">greensleevless</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 11:24 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">That's interesting - I 100% agree, just never thought about it that way</span>

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                                <img class="chatlog__reference-avatar" src="files/fb6f3fa17d55a3957d3978bf777dfb6d-EBFA8.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="" title="greensleevless#3859">greensleevless</div>
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-content">
                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '855150988363956286')">
That's interesting - I 100% agree, just never thought about it that way                                    </span>

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                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 11:25 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">there's a psychology "trick" that is common in the military, which is often summarized as "embrace the suck" where you actively discuss how bad something is going to be</span>

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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-855151163422146570" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="855151163422146570">
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                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="17-Jun-21 11:25 AM">11:25</div>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">and I think something similar can be used with programming (I certainly do a version of it)</span>

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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-855151257621757972" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="855151257621757972">
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                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="17-Jun-21 11:25 AM">11:25</div>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">where I tell people "ok, now we're going to do a bunch of stuff that's really awful and stupid, and you shouldn't feel bad thinking that it's awful and stupid ... everyone feels that way"</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="ratchetfreak#1181" data-user-id="269884325082693632">ratchetfreak</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 11:26 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">or kicking off a compile that takes the entire class to complete...</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="bumbread27#9116" data-user-id="934740907385847858">bumbread</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 11:26 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">personally I lose motivation when I program something awful and stupid. That's the only reason its so hard for me to do</span>

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                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 11:26 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">a huge problem I felt early on with "real programming" was that I kept feeling like, if I knew what I was doing, surely it wouldn't be so awful</span>

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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-855151550535041025" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="855151550535041025">
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                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="17-Jun-21 11:26 AM">11:26</div>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">and it was a revelation to me when I realize that actually it just is that awful</span>

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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-855151592020770886" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="855151592020770886">
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                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="17-Jun-21 11:27 AM">11:27</div>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">even experts fight with stupid <a class="inserted-after" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linker_(computing)" target="_blank">linker</a> errors ~daily</span>

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                                <img class="chatlog__reference-avatar" src="files/fb6f3fa17d55a3957d3978bf777dfb6d-EBFA8.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="" title="greensleevless#3859">greensleevless</div>
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-content">
                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '855150591185125466')">
And I'm not saying this to downplay the value things like raylib have - I think that role is possibly the most important (calling back to the 'light a fire' idea). But there are steps beyond that as well that are important too right?                                    </span>

                                </div>
                        </div>
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="raysan5#2998" data-user-id="427495923955007491">raysan5</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 11:27 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">raylib was originally created to be just a playground for art students, as you said, to "light a fire", most of those students just had fun for a while and never wrote code again... but some of them (and those are the key) decided to learn more and go deeper down the rabbit hole... and they learned Unity or Unreal later on but when some fundamental question pop-up, most of them came back to raylib sources (that are very readable) to understand how things work in the background.</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="greensleevless#3859" data-user-id="506594138683342849">greensleevless</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 11:28 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I wonder if a piece of the education discussion is around how teaching is equal parts expertise + experience design? Like its not enough that <span class="chatlog__markdown-mention" title="raysan5#2998">@raysan5</span> is a good engineer, but also that raylib incorporates thoughts on the experience of the student</span>

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                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="Rudy#2467" data-user-id="517049944885166091">Rudy</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 11:28 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">it makes it harder to sell that idea when in military movies their friends are dying and you know it's going to suck then you watch movies with hackers and they're in the CIA mainframe in 5 minutes</span>

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                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="Rudy#2467">Rudy</div>
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-content">
                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '855151937065713685')">
it makes it harder to sell that idea when in military movies their friends are dying and you know it's going to suck then you watch movies with hackers and they're in the CIA mainframe in 5 minutes                                    </span>

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                        </div>
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 11:29 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">yes another thing I do with young students is talk to them about misleading hacker portrayals, and just make fun of it a bit</span>

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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-855152173067534336" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="855152173067534336">
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                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="17-Jun-21 11:29 AM">11:29</div>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">show them the <a class="inserted-after" href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kl6rsi7BEtk" target="_blank">NCIS thing</a>, the <a class="inserted-after" href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u1Ds9CeG-VY" target="_blank">Swordfish thing</a>, a <a class="inserted-after" href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IESEcsjDcmM" target="_blank">scene from Hackers</a> etc.</span>

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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-855152225563181087" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="855152225563181087">
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                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="17-Jun-21 11:29 AM">11:29</div>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">and help them feel like it's ok that they don't feel like hollywood told them they would feel</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="Rudy#2467" data-user-id="517049944885166091">Rudy</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 11:29 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">the swordfish scene lol</span>

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                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="17-Jun-21 11:29 AM">11:29</div>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">the worst</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="CianMc#3363" data-user-id="326031207278313473">CianMc</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 11:30 AM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">a huge reason for the high dropout rates in Comp Sci is the lack of understanding of what programming is, usually fuelled by hollywood lol</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="greensleevless#3859" data-user-id="506594138683342849">greensleevless</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 11:30 AM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">This is like how bad it is for young artists to watch speedpainting videos on youtube. You just feel awful cause you're slower than a video that's been sped up 20x</span>

                            <span class="chatlog__edited-timestamp" title="17-Jun-21 11:30 AM">(edited)</span>
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<div class="chatlog__message-group">
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-855152492287361054" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="855152492287361054">
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                                <img class="chatlog__reference-avatar" src="files/fb6f3fa17d55a3957d3978bf777dfb6d-EBFA8.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="" title="greensleevless#3859">greensleevless</div>
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-content">
                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '855151865132744714')">
I wonder if a piece of the education discussion is around how teaching is equal parts expertise + experience design? Like its not enough that <span class="chatlog__markdown-mention" title="raysan5#2998">@raysan5</span> is a good engineer, but also that raylib incorporates thoughts on the experience of the student                                    </span>

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                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="raysan5#2998" data-user-id="427495923955007491">raysan5</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 11:30 AM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">if you have never written code before and it looks like magic to you, being able to make some magic for a while is an unforgettable experience</span>

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                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="raysan5#2998">raysan5</div>
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-content">
                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '855152492287361054')">
if you have never written code before and it looks like magic to you, being able to make some magic for a while is an unforgettable experience                                    </span>

                                </div>
                        </div>
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="greensleevless#3859" data-user-id="506594138683342849">greensleevless</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 11:31 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">That is really wonderful</span>

                    </div>




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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-855152552830828586" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="855152552830828586">
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            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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                                <img class="chatlog__reference-avatar" src="files/a36ccc03a4cc7476c87ddd7943b338c0-ED4AC.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="CianMc#3363">CianMc</div>
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-content">
                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '855152327890567229')">
a huge reason for the high dropout rates in Comp Sci is the lack of understanding of what programming is, usually fuelled by hollywood lol                                    </span>

                                </div>
                        </div>
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="Rudy#2467" data-user-id="517049944885166091">Rudy</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 11:30 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">i think this has contributed to a subtle disdain I have always had for the word 'coding'</span>

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                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="Rudy#2467" data-user-id="517049944885166091">Rudy</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 11:31 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">even though there shouldn't be</span>

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                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/cfed2ed27b658eea282b1babeab0b3a5-AEA5D.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="Rudy#2467" data-user-id="517049944885166091">Rudy</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 11:31 AM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">it's made out to be some secret special experience</span>

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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-855152744842133557" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="855152744842133557">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="17-Jun-21 11:31 AM">11:31</div>
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            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">but it's really just hard, and takes time, learning, frustration, and repetition</span>

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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-855152782087553074" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="855152782087553074">
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                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="17-Jun-21 11:31 AM">11:31</div>
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            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">it's a process, which is why i prefer the term programming</span>

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                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/cfed2ed27b658eea282b1babeab0b3a5-AEA5D.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="Rudy#2467" data-user-id="517049944885166091">Rudy</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 11:31 AM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">programming is a process</span>

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            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                        <div class="chatlog__reference">
                                <img class="chatlog__reference-avatar" src="files/cfed2ed27b658eea282b1babeab0b3a5-AEA5D.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="Rudy#2467">Rudy</div>
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-content">
                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '855152796667871282')">
programming is a process                                    </span>

                                </div>
                        </div>
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="raysan5#2998" data-user-id="427495923955007491">raysan5</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 11:32 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">yes, but not all the students want to be programmers</span>

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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-855153107737640971" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="855153107737640971">
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                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="17-Jun-21 11:33 AM">11:33</div>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">some students just want to feel like programmers for a while</span>

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            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                        <div class="chatlog__reference">
                                <img class="chatlog__reference-avatar" src="files/d14912903532d0bfd3b1ae0e7288de9e-A1757.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="raysan5#2998">raysan5</div>
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-content">
                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '855152492287361054')">
if you have never written code before and it looks like magic to you, being able to make some magic for a while is an unforgettable experience                                    </span>

                                </div>
                        </div>
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 11:31 AM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">yes this is what I mean about the old-days experience, where you boot your <a class="inserted-after" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_II" target="_blank">Apple II</a> and write 10 lines of code and you have a polygon</span>

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                            <div class="chatlog__reaction" title="thumbsup">
                                <img class="chatlog__emoji chatlog__emoji--small" alt="👍" src="files/1f44d-B3F5F.svg" loading="lazy">
                                <span class="chatlog__reaction-count">3</span>
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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-855152784726949889" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="855152784726949889">
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                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/89747c254631bcfd05c5c3e7141389aa-A1FB9.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 11:31 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">that makes you feel like "ok, making a polygon is roughly the same level of effort as solving a math problem"</span>

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<div class="chatlog__message-group" style="">
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                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/89747c254631bcfd05c5c3e7141389aa-A1FB9.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 11:32 AM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">whereas today, making a polygon appear on the screen is like writing <a class="inserted-after" href="https://www.lyricopera.org/lyric-lately/beginners-guide-wagner-ring-cycle/" target="_blank">Wagner's Ring Cycle</a></span>

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                            <div class="chatlog__reaction" title="WorstPractice">
                                <img class="chatlog__emoji chatlog__emoji--small" alt="WorstPractice" src="files/829496039064469514-929A2.png" loading="lazy">
                                <span class="chatlog__reaction-count">1</span>
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                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/1-B2132.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="ratchetfreak#1181" data-user-id="269884325082693632">ratchetfreak</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 11:32 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">depends on which api you picked that day</span>

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                                <img class="chatlog__reference-avatar" src="files/1-B2132.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="ratchetfreak#1181">ratchetfreak</div>
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-content">
                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '855153020131868702')">
depends on which api you picked that day                                    </span>

                                </div>
                        </div>
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 11:33 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">there are APIs that hide the 20 hour opera, but the opera is happening</span>

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            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="17-Jun-21 11:33 AM">11:33</div>
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            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">(I don't know if wagner's is really 20 hours, I'm just ballparking :P)</span>

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                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/1-B2132.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="ratchetfreak#1181" data-user-id="269884325082693632">ratchetfreak</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 11:33 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">like there wasn't a 5 hour opera on the applyII to put that polygon on screen</span>

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                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="Rudy#2467" data-user-id="517049944885166091">Rudy</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 11:33 AM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Alright everyone, fishbowls normally run about 2-3 hours, and we’re about 1.5 hours in. 

We have discussed the flaws in current software development training flows, we have discussed a little about what they do right. Let’s spend the remainder of the time discussing solutions. Things like:

- Is it possible for formal institutions to change course to incorporate the necessary changes, or is this not possible given the structure of academia?
- What would a “trade school” or “music school” for software development look like? Be specific, imagine you were responsible for everything from the timeline to the curriculum. What do students learn, in which weeks, and how?
- Anything else you would like to discuss?</span>

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                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 11:34 AM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">for the first question I'd add "why do we even care if universities are good places to learn programming?"</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="ratchetfreak#1181" data-user-id="269884325082693632">ratchetfreak</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 11:34 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">because that's where people go to learn programming</span>

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                            <div class="chatlog__reaction" title="kekw">
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                                <span class="chatlog__reaction-count">1</span>
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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="raysan5#2998" data-user-id="427495923955007491">raysan5</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 11:34 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve"><div class="chatlog__markdown-quote"><div class="chatlog__markdown-quote-border"></div><div class="chatlog__markdown-quote-content">Is it possible for formal institutions to change course to incorporate the necessary changes, or is this not possible given the structure of academia?</div></div></span>

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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-855153576258437161" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="855153576258437161">
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                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="17-Jun-21 11:35 AM">11:35</div>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I think it is possible but it requires a lot of work from the teacher side and from the University side, also it's about money...</span>

                            <span class="chatlog__edited-timestamp" title="17-Jun-21 11:35 AM">(edited)</span>
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                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588">demetrispanos</div>
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                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '855153463972855819')">
for the first question I'd add "why do we even care if universities are good places to learn programming?"                                    </span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="Rudy#2467" data-user-id="517049944885166091">Rudy</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 11:35 AM</span>
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                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I would assume it's because of the systemic changes to academia over the last 40 or so years, like you mentioned</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="Rudy#2467" data-user-id="517049944885166091">Rudy</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 11:35 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">we have been trained to think that a university is the path to success</span>

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                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '855153538433941504')">
because that's where people go to learn programming                                    </span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 11:35 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">right, I agree, but this could in principle change</span>

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                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588">demetrispanos</div>
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                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '855153698014756864')">
right, I agree, but this could in principle change                                    </span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="ratchetfreak#1181" data-user-id="269884325082693632">ratchetfreak</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 11:35 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">sure but that would require a mentality shift</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 11:35 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">so perhaps fixing the universities is not the most important avenue</span>

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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-855153961913024552" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="855153961913024552">
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                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="17-Jun-21 11:36 AM">11:36</div>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I'm obviously biased here, having many friends and family in academia, but I think they are more in the right than in the wrong with the choices they (as professors) make</span>

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                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="17-Jun-21 11:36 AM">11:36</div>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">the problem is that people have expectations for CS departments that are not realistic</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="greensleevless#3859" data-user-id="506594138683342849">greensleevless</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 11:36 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">One synthesis (to borrow the term) of the discussion up to now seems to hint at a flow of:
show high impact early -&gt; build a visceral understanding of why some of the abstract stuff matters -&gt; drill to specific subjects -&gt; spend lots of time practicing.
Maybe a flip on the university discussion is - where is the best place to facilitate this flow? (and does this synthesis seem right to yall?)</span>

                            <span class="chatlog__edited-timestamp" title="17-Jun-21 11:37 AM">(edited)</span>
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                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588">demetrispanos</div>
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                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '855154020058791976')">
the problem is that people have expectations for CS departments that are not realistic                                    </span>

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                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="Rudy#2467" data-user-id="517049944885166091">Rudy</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 11:36 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">but they're sold that</span>

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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-855154085845139476" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="855154085845139476">
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                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="17-Jun-21 11:37 AM">11:37</div>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">chicken egg problem</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 11:37 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I agree they're sold that, but people are not sold (for example) that getting an English Literature degree makes you a novelist</span>

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                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="17-Jun-21 11:37 AM">11:37</div>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">so it's not a fact of the universe, it's a fact of choices made in society</span>

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                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588">demetrispanos</div>
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-content">
                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '855153765598232586')">
so perhaps fixing the universities is not the most important avenue                                    </span>

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                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="raysan5#2998" data-user-id="427495923955007491">raysan5</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 11:37 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I think Universities are still a strong point of reference for education, so, if their educational offer can be improved, it's a positive thing</span>

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                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="raysan5#2998">raysan5</div>
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                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '855154219262279711')">
I think Universities are still a strong point of reference for education, so, if their educational offer can be improved, it's a positive thing                                    </span>

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                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 11:38 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">my point is that improvement presumes a goal, and I'm saying that for the university's true goal (advancing knowledge) they do an ok job</span>

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                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="17-Jun-21 11:38 AM">11:38</div>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">again, there is much blame to go around, but I don't think it's wise to expect universities to change their focus to be mainly about creating good programmers</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="CianMc#3363" data-user-id="326031207278313473">CianMc</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 11:38 AM</span>
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                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">i don't think universities necessarily need to change, societies perception and expectation of the them does</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="ratchetfreak#1181" data-user-id="269884325082693632">ratchetfreak</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 11:38 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">for sure the things that must be learned is learning and using a variety of api paradigms, dealing with an event loop (how to split processing up in multiple parts, wait for inputs, etc.), understanding how much performance is actually at their fingertips</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="CianMc#3363" data-user-id="326031207278313473">CianMc</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 11:39 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">it should be more socially and professionally acceptable to not go to university and to attend a trade school etc.</span>

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                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/cfed2ed27b658eea282b1babeab0b3a5-AEA5D.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="Rudy#2467" data-user-id="517049944885166091">Rudy</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 11:39 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">maybe the real lesson is universities shouldn't be the perceived route for becoming a developer</span>

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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-855154745475989534" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="855154745475989534">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="17-Jun-21 11:39 AM">11:39</div>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">but learning more about computer science, or advancing the field</span>

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                                <img class="chatlog__reference-avatar" src="files/cfed2ed27b658eea282b1babeab0b3a5-AEA5D.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="Rudy#2467">Rudy</div>
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-content">
                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '855154653548642304')">
maybe the real lesson is universities shouldn't be the perceived route for becoming a developer                                    </span>

                                </div>
                        </div>
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 11:39 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">this is, I think, the most important thing</span>

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                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="CianMc#3363" data-user-id="326031207278313473">CianMc</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 11:39 AM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">the same could be said for many fields tbh! I feel like many of the issues with computer science education are shared by other fields</span>

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                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588">demetrispanos</div>
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-content">
                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '855154434354970635')">
again, there is much blame to go around, but I don't think it's wise to expect universities to change their focus to be mainly about creating good programmers                                    </span>

                                </div>
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                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="raysan5#2998" data-user-id="427495923955007491">raysan5</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 11:43 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">personally, the main lessons University taught me were not technical but being organized, responsible, punctual, to learn fast, to adapt to changes, identify key elements to learn... but I imagine not all the students learn the same way...</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="Rudy#2467" data-user-id="517049944885166091">Rudy</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 11:43 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">most people attribute their learning in college to those exact things</span>

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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-855155836825501717" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="855155836825501717">
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            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="17-Jun-21 11:43 AM">11:43</div>
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            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">and almost never to the discipline they studied</span>

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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-855155888729096252" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="855155888729096252">
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                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="17-Jun-21 11:44 AM">11:44</div>
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            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">i feel very similar in fact</span>

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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-855155903958089728" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="855155903958089728">
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                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="raysan5#2998" data-user-id="427495923955007491">raysan5</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 11:44 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">that's it</span>

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                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/1-B2132.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="ratchetfreak#1181" data-user-id="269884325082693632">ratchetfreak</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 11:44 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">because college is the first time they are free from the rigor of high school</span>

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                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/d14912903532d0bfd3b1ae0e7288de9e-A1757.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="raysan5#2998" data-user-id="427495923955007491">raysan5</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 11:44 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">also note most of those things could be learned in many other places</span>

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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-855156076853198848" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="855156076853198848">
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                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="17-Jun-21 11:44 AM">11:44</div>
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            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">and I really thing that helps to be a better programmer</span>

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<div class="chatlog__message-group">
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                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="raysan5#2998">raysan5</div>
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-content">
                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '855155603448791081')">
personally, the main lessons University taught me were not technical but being organized, responsible, punctual, to learn fast, to adapt to changes, identify key elements to learn... but I imagine not all the students learn the same way...                                    </span>

                                </div>
                        </div>
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 11:45 AM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">as a counterpoint, for me personally, I learned an enormous amount of domain knowledge from my university courses</span>

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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-855156146042306572" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="855156146042306572">
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            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="17-Jun-21 11:45 AM">11:45</div>
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            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">but as I mentioned in the podcast, I didn't study CS</span>

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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-855156217978945586" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="855156217978945586">
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                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="17-Jun-21 11:45 AM">11:45</div>
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            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I think university was the most efficient path by far for me to get the knowledge I wanted</span>

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                                <img class="chatlog__emoji chatlog__emoji--small" alt="👍" src="files/1f44d-B3F5F.svg" loading="lazy">
                                <span class="chatlog__reaction-count">2</span>
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                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588">demetrispanos</div>
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-content">
                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '855156146042306572')">
but as I mentioned in the podcast, I didn't study CS                                    </span>

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                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="raysan5#2998" data-user-id="427495923955007491">raysan5</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 11:45 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I neither studied CS <img loading="lazy" class="chatlog__emoji " alt="😄" title="smile" src="files\twemoji_1f604.svg"></span>

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                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="raysan5#2998">raysan5</div>
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-content">
                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '855155603448791081')">
personally, the main lessons University taught me were not technical but being organized, responsible, punctual, to learn fast, to adapt to changes, identify key elements to learn... but I imagine not all the students learn the same way...                                    </span>

                                </div>
                        </div>
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="greensleevless#3859" data-user-id="506594138683342849">greensleevless</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 11:46 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">This is interesting in the context of more online/distributed/self directed learning. I feel like the biggest thing I learned from school was a work ethic (I certainly learned a ton of domain specific stuff) - but I wouldn't have gotten that if my school weren't so demanding.</span>

                            <span class="chatlog__edited-timestamp" title="17-Jun-21 11:46 AM">(edited)</span>
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                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="Rudy#2467">Rudy</div>
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-content">
                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '855153292384796732')">
Alright everyone, fishbowls normally run about 2-3 hours, and we’re about 1.5 hours in. 

We have discussed the flaws in current software development training flows, we have discussed a little about what they do right. Let’s spend the remainder of the time discussing solutions. Things like:

- Is it possible for formal institutions to change course to incorporate the necessary changes, or is this not possible given the structure of academia?
- What would a “trade school” or “music school” for software development look like? Be specific, imagine you were responsible for everything from the timeline to the curriculum. What do students learn, in which weeks, and how?
- Anything else you would like to discuss?                                    </span>

                                </div>
                        </div>
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="greensleevless#3859" data-user-id="506594138683342849">greensleevless</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 11:48 AM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Jumping back to the second question - thoughts?</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="raysan5#2998" data-user-id="427495923955007491">raysan5</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 11:49 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve"><div class="chatlog__markdown-quote"><div class="chatlog__markdown-quote-border"></div><div class="chatlog__markdown-quote-content">What would a “trade school” or “music school” for software development look like? Be specific, imagine you were responsible for everything from the timeline to the curriculum. What do students learn, in which weeks, and how?</div></div></span>

                    </div>




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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 11:49 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">well, we can start from the closest things available, which I think are gamedev schools (the programming arms)</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 11:50 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I don't have any direct knowledge of gamedev schools but it seems DigiPen produces at least <em>some</em> successful programmers?</span>

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                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="raysan5#2998" data-user-id="427495923955007491">raysan5</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 11:51 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Actually, I've been there. I worked for a "trade school" for 6 years, teaching multiple videogames development subjects and defining the syllabus for all of them. That school was the first in Spain offering a 2-years specialized course in Videogames Development.</span>

                            <span class="chatlog__edited-timestamp" title="17-Jun-21 11:52 AM">(edited)</span>
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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="ratchetfreak#1181" data-user-id="269884325082693632">ratchetfreak</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 11:50 AM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I'll reiterate:
<div class="chatlog__markdown-quote"><div class="chatlog__markdown-quote-border"></div><div class="chatlog__markdown-quote-content">for sure the things that must be learned is learning and using a variety of api paradigms, dealing with an event loop (how to split processing up in multiple parts, wait for inputs, etc.), understanding how much performance is actually at their fingertips</div></div></span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="ratchetfreak#1181" data-user-id="269884325082693632">ratchetfreak</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 11:50 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">those are definitely second year subjects after they are comfortable with imperative programming already</span>

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                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="ratchetfreak#1181">ratchetfreak</div>
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-content">
                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '855157585320345621')">
those are definitely second year subjects after they are comfortable with imperative programming already                                    </span>

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                        </div>
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="greensleevless#3859" data-user-id="506594138683342849">greensleevless</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 11:52 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Do you have thoughts on how you do that first year?</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="ratchetfreak#1181" data-user-id="269884325082693632">ratchetfreak</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 11:53 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">assuming they come with blank slate at the very least teach them a language</span>

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                                <img class="chatlog__reference-avatar" src="files/1-B2132.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="ratchetfreak#1181">ratchetfreak</div>
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-content">
                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '855158205968285746')">
assuming they come with blank slate at the very least teach them a language                                    </span>

                                </div>
                        </div>
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 11:53 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">actually this is a great point that I think we should explore, in comparison to music schools</span>

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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-855158414694154330" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="855158414694154330">
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                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="17-Jun-21 11:54 AM">11:54</div>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I don't think there's a serious music school that accepts students who don't know either an instrument or composition already</span>

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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-855158453398667304" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="855158453398667304">
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                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="17-Jun-21 11:54 AM">11:54</div>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I may just be underinformed</span>

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                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="greensleevless#3859" data-user-id="506594138683342849">greensleevless</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 11:54 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I mean, that's true of design school too - I had to have a portfolio to even apply</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 11:54 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">yeah sounds similar I just didn't know</span>

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                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="raysan5#2998" data-user-id="427495923955007491">raysan5</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 11:56 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">my school was mostly art oriented, in terms of programming, they started with Programming I -&gt;  C basics (20h) + raylib (30h). Second subject, Programming II -&gt; intro to OOP with C# and MonoGame (60h). Third subject: Unity (60h)</span>

                            <span class="chatlog__edited-timestamp" title="17-Jun-21 11:57 AM">(edited)</span>
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            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="17-Jun-21 11:57 AM">11:57</div>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">no previous experience was required</span>

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                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588">demetrispanos</div>
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-content">
                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '855158414694154330')">
I don't think there's a serious music school that accepts students who don't know either an instrument or composition already                                    </span>

                                </div>
                        </div>
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="greensleevless#3859" data-user-id="506594138683342849">greensleevless</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 11:58 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">what about this did you want to explore?</span>

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                                <img class="chatlog__reference-avatar" src="files/fb6f3fa17d55a3957d3978bf777dfb6d-EBFA8.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="" title="greensleevless#3859">greensleevless</div>
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-content">
                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '855159492621893632')">
what about this did you want to explore?                                    </span>

                                </div>
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                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 11:59 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">well, assumptions baked into what universities or other schools should expect</span>

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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-855159790379204638" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="855159790379204638">
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            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="17-Jun-21 11:59 AM">11:59</div>
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            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">so I can tell you from direct experience, CS professors have no idea what to do with an introductory CS course</span>

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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-855159847292764210" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="855159847292764210">
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            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="17-Jun-21 11:59 AM">11:59</div>
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            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">because half the students have been programming since they were 12, and the other half have never programmed before</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="greensleevless#3859" data-user-id="506594138683342849">greensleevless</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 12:00 PM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">ah yea - the intro courses I took actually let you test up into a more advanced intro course. (My problem was that the test was making a game, which I knew how to do, but the course was all algorithms stuff that I was horribly underprepared for XD)</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="ratchetfreak#1181" data-user-id="269884325082693632">ratchetfreak</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 12:00 PM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">and it's tricky to separate them out, because quite a few of those 12yo will still benefit from a course aimed at blank slates</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="greensleevless#3859" data-user-id="506594138683342849">greensleevless</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 12:02 PM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">^ yep - I was in that bucket. I had some pretty specific skills around game dev, but was in need of some application-oriented theory.</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 12:02 PM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">even late in the degree, the spread of programming fundamentals skill is enormous</span>

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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-855160700438970438" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="855160700438970438">
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                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="17-Jun-21 12:03 PM">12:03</div>
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            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">it's quite ordinary to have a 4th year student who can only just barely create a working project from scratch</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="greensleevless#3859" data-user-id="506594138683342849">greensleevless</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 12:05 PM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I guess the impact of that depends on how many of those students want to stay in university as a part of the 'knowledge development' institution vs go out and work right?</span>

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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-855161329978834985" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="855161329978834985">
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                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="17-Jun-21 12:05 PM">12:05</div>
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            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I mean, we know its not a good ratio, but that is a factor</span>

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                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 12:07 PM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">yeah obviously if the goals are not around programming as a practice this isn't necessarily a problem</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="greensleevless#3859" data-user-id="506594138683342849">greensleevless</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 12:09 PM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">bringing this back to the discussion of an improved way of teaching software development: it'd be interesting to think about how you utilize that skill gap to teach some of the finer details. I'm thinking about how you could use something like <span class="chatlog__markdown-mention" title="raysan5#2998">@raysan5</span>'s project template to teach new students what a good project looks like, but then when they advance, have them create the template for new students so they start to understand what kinds of considerations lead to the systems baked into the template they learned from</span>

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                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/1-B2132.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="ratchetfreak#1181" data-user-id="269884325082693632">ratchetfreak</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 12:09 PM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">teaching how to build APIs</span>

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            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                        <div class="chatlog__reference">
                                <img class="chatlog__reference-avatar" src="files/fb6f3fa17d55a3957d3978bf777dfb6d-EBFA8.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="" title="greensleevless#3859">greensleevless</div>
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-content">
                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '855162239559270412')">
bringing this back to the discussion of an improved way of teaching software development: it'd be interesting to think about how you utilize that skill gap to teach some of the finer details. I'm thinking about how you could use something like <span class="chatlog__markdown-mention" title="raysan5#2998">@raysan5</span>'s project template to teach new students what a good project looks like, but then when they advance, have them create the template for new students so they start to understand what kinds of considerations lead to the systems baked into the template they learned from                                    </span>

                                </div>
                        </div>
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="raysan5#2998" data-user-id="427495923955007491">raysan5</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 12:11 PM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">actually, in the University were I taught, students have several subjects connected along the 4 years, they have that template to start with but it evolves into a big engine with an IDE</span>

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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-855162934988767243" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="855162934988767243">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="17-Jun-21 12:12 PM">12:12</div>
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">at the end of the 3rd year, not much of the original code is still there</span>

                    </div>




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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-855163041750056981" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="855163041750056981">
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            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="17-Jun-21 12:12 PM">12:12</div>
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">still, in terms of API design and architecture I think it can be greatly improved</span>

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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-855163076496195594" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="855163076496195594">
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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="greensleevless#3859" data-user-id="506594138683342849">greensleevless</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 12:12 PM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">oh that's super cool</span>

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                                <img class="chatlog__reference-avatar" src="files/d14912903532d0bfd3b1ae0e7288de9e-A1757.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="raysan5#2998">raysan5</div>
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-content">
                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '855163041750056981')">
still, in terms of API design and architecture I think it can be greatly improved                                    </span>

                                </div>
                        </div>
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="greensleevless#3859" data-user-id="506594138683342849">greensleevless</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 12:13 PM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">do you have some specific things in mind?</span>

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            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="raysan5#2998" data-user-id="427495923955007491">raysan5</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 12:13 PM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">well, not really because I was not allowed to do big changes...</span>

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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-855163571414368297" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="855163571414368297">
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                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="17-Jun-21 12:14 PM">12:14</div>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">University could be a bit reluctant to changes...</span>

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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-855163670044475393" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="855163670044475393">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="17-Jun-21 12:15 PM">12:15</div>
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            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">and more when those changes involve multiple subjects along 4 years</span>

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                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/1-B2132.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="ratchetfreak#1181" data-user-id="269884325082693632">ratchetfreak</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 12:15 PM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">even in a field that is moving so fast</span>

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                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="raysan5#2998" data-user-id="427495923955007491">raysan5</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 12:15 PM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">yeah...</span>

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                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="greensleevless#3859" data-user-id="506594138683342849">greensleevless</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 12:18 PM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I just reread <span class="chatlog__markdown-mention" title="Rudy#2467">@Rudy</span>'s questions again and noticed: "What do students learn, in which weeks, and how?"
Could be fun to put together a curriculum in the time we have left?</span>

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                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/cfed2ed27b658eea282b1babeab0b3a5-AEA5D.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="Rudy#2467" data-user-id="517049944885166091">Rudy</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 12:18 PM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Might be cheating for <span class="chatlog__markdown-mention" title="raysan5#2998">@raysan5</span> <img loading="lazy" class="chatlog__emoji " alt="😄" title="smile" src="files\twemoji_1f604.svg"></span>

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                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/d14912903532d0bfd3b1ae0e7288de9e-A1757.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="raysan5#2998" data-user-id="427495923955007491">raysan5</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 12:19 PM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">hahahaha... I was about to share the University one <img loading="lazy" class="chatlog__emoji " alt="😛" title="stuck_out_tongue" src="files\twemoji_1f61b.svg"></span>

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            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="greensleevless#3859" data-user-id="506594138683342849">greensleevless</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 12:19 PM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">haha or it'll just put our curriculum that much further ahead</span>

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            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                        <div class="chatlog__reference">
                                <img class="chatlog__reference-avatar" src="files/fb6f3fa17d55a3957d3978bf777dfb6d-EBFA8.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="" title="greensleevless#3859">greensleevless</div>
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-content">
                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '855164404492402688')">
I just reread <span class="chatlog__markdown-mention" title="Rudy#2467">@Rudy</span>'s questions again and noticed: "What do students learn, in which weeks, and how?"
Could be fun to put together a curriculum in the time we have left?                                    </span>

                                </div>
                        </div>
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 12:19 PM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">personally I think this is missing the forest for the trees, I don't think the main problem is that universities have mis-optimized their course sequences</span>

                            <span class="chatlog__edited-timestamp" title="17-Jun-21 12:19 PM">(edited)</span>
                    </div>




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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-855164797276389396" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="855164797276389396">
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            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="17-Jun-21 12:19 PM">12:19</div>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">if the problem were that mundane it would be solved by now</span>

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                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/cfed2ed27b658eea282b1babeab0b3a5-AEA5D.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="Rudy#2467" data-user-id="517049944885166091">Rudy</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 12:20 PM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I think there is a problem with throwing python at someone, having them type <span class="chatlog__markdown-pre chatlog__markdown-pre--inline">print("hello world")</span> and telling them they wrote their first program</span>

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                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/89747c254631bcfd05c5c3e7141389aa-A1FB9.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 12:20 PM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">indeed the main problem is the parentheses</span>

                    </div>




                    <div class="chatlog__reactions">
                            <div class="chatlog__reaction" title="lol_sobbing">
                                <img class="chatlog__emoji chatlog__emoji--small" alt="lol_sobbing" src="files/812478052110041099-8F0C5.png" loading="lazy">
                                <span class="chatlog__reaction-count">4</span>
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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-855165161665331237" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="855165161665331237">
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            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="17-Jun-21 12:21 PM">12:21</div>
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            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">(sorry, language design joke)</span>

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                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/cfed2ed27b658eea282b1babeab0b3a5-AEA5D.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="Rudy#2467" data-user-id="517049944885166091">Rudy</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 12:21 PM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">haha</span>

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                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/1-B2132.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="ratchetfreak#1181" data-user-id="269884325082693632">ratchetfreak</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 12:21 PM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">hello world is nice but far from a "first program"</span>

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                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/cfed2ed27b658eea282b1babeab0b3a5-AEA5D.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="Rudy#2467" data-user-id="517049944885166091">Rudy</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 12:21 PM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">i don't really miss python2 too much</span>

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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-855165319986544680" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="855165319986544680">
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            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="17-Jun-21 12:21 PM">12:21</div>
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            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">but i know some folks like our friend zed have picked that hill to die on</span>

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            </div>
        </div>
    </div>
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-855165398315958282" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="855165398315958282">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="17-Jun-21 12:21 PM">12:21</div>
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">off-topic, anyway</span>

                    </div>




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        </div>
    </div>
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-855165527377576008" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="855165527377576008">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="17-Jun-21 12:22 PM">12:22</div>
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I do think there is a misconfiguration of courses to take someone from nil to competent developer</span>

                    </div>




            </div>
        </div>
    </div>
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-855165560106909706" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="855165560106909706">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="17-Jun-21 12:22 PM">12:22</div>
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I do think it could be optimized</span>

                    </div>




            </div>
        </div>
    </div>
</div>



<div class="chatlog__message-group">
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-855165611860688927" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="855165611860688927">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                        <div class="chatlog__reference-symbol"></div>
                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/d14912903532d0bfd3b1ae0e7288de9e-A1757.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                        <div class="chatlog__reference">
                                <img class="chatlog__reference-avatar" src="files/89747c254631bcfd05c5c3e7141389aa-A1FB9.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588">demetrispanos</div>
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-content">
                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '855164797276389396')">
if the problem were that mundane it would be solved by now                                    </span>

                                </div>
                        </div>
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="raysan5#2998" data-user-id="427495923955007491">raysan5</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 12:22 PM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I think one problem with Universities is not the the syllabus but the teachers</span>

                    </div>




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        </div>
    </div>
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-855165960540127253" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="855165960540127253">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="17-Jun-21 12:24 PM">12:24</div>
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">It's difficult to find technically experienced teachers that can also teach and also have all the titles required to teach in the University</span>

                    </div>




            </div>
        </div>
    </div>
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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-855166175457837076" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="855166175457837076">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/89747c254631bcfd05c5c3e7141389aa-A1FB9.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 12:25 PM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">well a lot of that is just goal misalignment</span>

                    </div>




            </div>
        </div>
    </div>
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-855166201617842247" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="855166201617842247">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="17-Jun-21 12:25 PM">12:25</div>
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">the university is not especially interested in doing that</span>

                    </div>




            </div>
        </div>
    </div>
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-855166373239193610" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="855166373239193610">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="17-Jun-21 12:25 PM">12:25</div>
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">and there are very reasonable reasons, from a narrow perspective, for them to hold those views</span>

                    </div>




            </div>
        </div>
    </div>
</div>



<div class="chatlog__message-group" style="">
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-855166925616971807" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="855166925616971807">
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            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                        <div class="chatlog__reference">
                                <img class="chatlog__reference-avatar" src="files/89747c254631bcfd05c5c3e7141389aa-A1FB9.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588">demetrispanos</div>
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-content">
                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '855166201617842247')">
the university is not especially interested in doing that                                    </span>

                                </div>
                        </div>
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="raysan5#2998" data-user-id="427495923955007491">raysan5</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 12:28 PM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">but I think students require that kind of teachers to see the connection between their studies and the professional world</span>

                            <span class="chatlog__edited-timestamp" title="17-Jun-21 12:28 PM">(edited)</span>
                    </div>




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</div><div class="chatlog__message-group" style="">
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-855167041546485782" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="855167041546485782">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/89747c254631bcfd05c5c3e7141389aa-A1FB9.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 12:28 PM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I agree, but for reasons that are complicated and historical that's not what universities are</span>

                    </div>




            </div>
        </div>
    </div>
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-855167067582234655" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="855167067582234655">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="17-Jun-21 12:28 PM">12:28</div>
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">even though that is how they are sold to the public</span>

                    </div>




                    <div class="chatlog__reactions">
                            <div class="chatlog__reaction" title="thumbsup">
                                <img class="chatlog__emoji chatlog__emoji--small" alt="👍" src="files/1f44d-B3F5F.svg" loading="lazy">
                                <span class="chatlog__reaction-count">1</span>
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                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/0-EB806.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                        <div class="chatlog__reference">
                                <img class="chatlog__reference-avatar" src="files/1-B2132.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="ratchetfreak#1181">ratchetfreak</div>
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-content">
                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '855165206338207745')">
hello world is nice but far from a "first program"                                    </span>

                                </div>
                        </div>
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="bumbread27#9116" data-user-id="934740907385847858">bumbread</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 12:27 PM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">sorry I don't understand. Do you mean that it is far too simple to be meaningful?</span>

                    </div>




            </div>
        </div>
    </div>
</div>











<div class="chatlog__message-group">
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-855167160431411220" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="855167160431411220">
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                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/1-B2132.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
            </div>

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                        <div class="chatlog__reference">
                                <img class="chatlog__reference-avatar" src="files/0-EB806.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="" title="bumbread27#9116">bumbread</div>
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-content">
                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '855166866121162754')">
sorry I don't understand. Do you mean that it is far too simple to be meaningful?                                    </span>

                                </div>
                        </div>
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="ratchetfreak#1181" data-user-id="269884325082693632">ratchetfreak</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 12:28 PM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">it's going through the motions of setting up the environment and verifying that it worked</span>

                    </div>




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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-855167477632466974" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="855167477632466974">
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                        <div class="chatlog__reference-symbol"></div>
                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/d14912903532d0bfd3b1ae0e7288de9e-A1757.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                        <div class="chatlog__reference">
                                <img class="chatlog__reference-avatar" src="files/89747c254631bcfd05c5c3e7141389aa-A1FB9.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588">demetrispanos</div>
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-content">
                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '855167067582234655')">
even though that is how they are sold to the public                                    </span>

                                </div>
                        </div>
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="raysan5#2998" data-user-id="427495923955007491">raysan5</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 12:30 PM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">actually, many Universities here in Spain use that "connection with companies" for internships as a selling point</span>

                    </div>




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    </div>
</div><div class="chatlog__message-group" style="">
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-855167602791284756" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="855167602791284756">
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            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/1-B2132.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="ratchetfreak#1181" data-user-id="269884325082693632">ratchetfreak</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 12:30 PM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I wonder what the split is in acquiring skills between formal classes vs. the internships</span>

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<div class="chatlog__message-group">
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-855168005884608523" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="855168005884608523">
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                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/d14912903532d0bfd3b1ae0e7288de9e-A1757.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                        <div class="chatlog__reference">
                                <img class="chatlog__reference-avatar" src="files/1-B2132.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="ratchetfreak#1181">ratchetfreak</div>
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-content">
                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '855167602791284756')">
I wonder what the split is in acquiring skills between formal classes vs. the internships                                    </span>

                                </div>
                        </div>
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="raysan5#2998" data-user-id="427495923955007491">raysan5</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 12:32 PM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">internship depends a lot on the company you get, in some companies you can really learn a lot</span>

                    </div>




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        </div>
    </div>
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-855168166706413580" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="855168166706413580">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="17-Jun-21 12:32 PM">12:32</div>
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">companies are supposed to teach interns but that's not always the case</span>

                    </div>




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    </div>
</div>



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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-855168236400279574" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="855168236400279574">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/fb6f3fa17d55a3957d3978bf777dfb6d-EBFA8.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="greensleevless#3859" data-user-id="506594138683342849">greensleevless</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 12:33 PM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">yea - the degree to which companies prioritize mentorship / intentional design of the internship is really important. Really a lot of the things we've discussed here apply to internships with different priorities.</span>

                    </div>




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<div class="chatlog__message-group">
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-855168350845927484" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="855168350845927484">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/89747c254631bcfd05c5c3e7141389aa-A1FB9.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 12:33 PM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">yes, one of the many problems involved here is the economics of training</span>

                    </div>




                    <div class="chatlog__reactions">
                            <div class="chatlog__reaction" title="thumbsup">
                                <img class="chatlog__emoji chatlog__emoji--small" alt="👍" src="files/1f44d-B3F5F.svg" loading="lazy">
                                <span class="chatlog__reaction-count">1</span>
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    </div>
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-855168633629442059" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="855168633629442059">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="17-Jun-21 12:34 PM">12:34</div>
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">it's a little tangential so I won't elaborate much, but given 1) programming skill can make you a good income, 2) teaching you programming skill takes a lot of effort from people who can make a good income, 3) teaching you to program doesn't guarantee you will program <em>for me</em>, then it's not surprising that training is spotty</span>

                    </div>




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        </div>
    </div>
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-855168731453194271" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="855168731453194271">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="17-Jun-21 12:35 PM">12:35</div>
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">selfishly, why should a business spend resources to make <em>you</em> wealthier with no guarantee they will get anything out of it</span>

                    </div>




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        </div>
    </div>
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-855168802235744336" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="855168802235744336">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="17-Jun-21 12:35 PM">12:35</div>
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">(obviously there are possibilities to recruit you down the line etc. I'm just giving the cartoon version)</span>

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<div class="chatlog__message-group">
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-855168870053838848" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="855168870053838848">
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            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/fb6f3fa17d55a3957d3978bf777dfb6d-EBFA8.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="greensleevless#3859" data-user-id="506594138683342849">greensleevless</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 12:35 PM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Yea - especially when internships function just as well at snapping up already skilled workers earlier.</span>

                    </div>




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        </div>
    </div>
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-855168905508683836" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="855168905508683836">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="17-Jun-21 12:35 PM">12:35</div>
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">ah you got there before me sorry for reiterating</span>

                    </div>




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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-855168913562402826" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="855168913562402826">
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                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/d14912903532d0bfd3b1ae0e7288de9e-A1757.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="raysan5#2998" data-user-id="427495923955007491">raysan5</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 12:35 PM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve"><div class="chatlog__markdown-quote"><div class="chatlog__markdown-quote-border"></div><div class="chatlog__markdown-quote-content"> 2) teaching you programming skill takes a lot of effort from people who can make a good income
</div></div>
this also applies to teachers... <img loading="lazy" class="chatlog__emoji " alt="😉" title="wink" src="files\twemoji_1f609.svg"></span>

                            <span class="chatlog__edited-timestamp" title="17-Jun-21 12:36 PM">(edited)</span>
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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 12:36 PM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">yes exactly, this is partly why it's hard to get good teachers no matter what the institution</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="ratchetfreak#1181" data-user-id="269884325082693632">ratchetfreak</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 12:36 PM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">and where the saying "those who can't, teach" comes from</span>

                            <span class="chatlog__edited-timestamp" title="17-Jun-21 12:37 PM">(edited)</span>
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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="raysan5#2998" data-user-id="427495923955007491">raysan5</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 12:37 PM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">and the education quality problem intensifies... <img loading="lazy" class="chatlog__emoji " alt="😛" title="stuck_out_tongue" src="files\twemoji_1f61b.svg"></span>

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                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="17-Jun-21 12:38 PM">12:38</div>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">teaching is also a very passionate job</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 12:38 PM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">speaking personally, the salary a full-time entry level professor had when I was at USC was about 30-40% of my total income as a professional ML/AI engineer</span>

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                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="17-Jun-21 12:38 PM">12:38</div>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">and even less now</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="raysan5#2998" data-user-id="427495923955007491">raysan5</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 12:39 PM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve"><span class="chatlog__markdown-mention" title="demetrispanos#5588">@demetrispanos</span> it's the same in Spain... but not only for entry-level</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="raysan5#2998" data-user-id="427495923955007491">raysan5</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 12:40 PM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">you need to be a PhD to get a full-time position, if not, you are on contract per hours</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="greensleevless#3859" data-user-id="506594138683342849">greensleevless</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 12:40 PM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">places like HMN are interesting in this discussion since there's plenty of people who are very willing to teach on here - albeit in bite sized increments.</span>

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                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588">demetrispanos</div>
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                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '855169055001280552')">
yes exactly, this is partly why it's hard to get good teachers no matter what the institution                                    </span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="Rudy#2467" data-user-id="517049944885166091">Rudy</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 12:40 PM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">also the fact that being a pretty good teacher in a bunch of concepts across the board won't get you hired, but being an expert in ML and shit at everything else will</span>

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                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="Rudy#2467">Rudy</div>
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                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '855170178689662987')">
also the fact that being a pretty good teacher in a bunch of concepts across the board won't get you hired, but being an expert in ML and shit at everything else will                                    </span>

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                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 12:41 PM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">yes also true</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="Rudy#2467" data-user-id="517049944885166091">Rudy</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 12:43 PM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">There’s also name bias, in both people and schools - i.e you might have a research paper with strong results but it will immediately met with more scrutiny than a paper submitted from an Ivy League, or even if you’re the 5th author on that paper, or if the author is a big name in the field.</span>

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                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="Rudy#2467">Rudy</div>
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                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '855170904346591272')">
There’s also name bias, in both people and schools - i.e you might have a research paper with strong results but it will immediately met with more scrutiny than a paper submitted from an Ivy League, or even if you’re the 5th author on that paper, or if the author is a big name in the field.                                    </span>

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                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="raysan5#2998" data-user-id="427495923955007491">raysan5</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 12:45 PM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">that's one thing that I don't like from University...</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="Rudy#2467" data-user-id="517049944885166091">Rudy</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 12:45 PM</span>
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                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">It’s really all pretty unfair, and counterintuitive to promoting the best possible advancement in any field</span>

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                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="17-Jun-21 12:45 PM">12:45</div>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Especially when the vast majority of your PhDs are indeed “true believers”</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="raysan5#2998" data-user-id="427495923955007491">raysan5</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 12:48 PM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve"><span class="chatlog__markdown-mention" title="Rudy#2467">@Rudy</span> <span class="chatlog__markdown-mention" title="demetrispanos#5588">@demetrispanos</span> <span class="chatlog__markdown-mention" title="greensleevless#3859">@greensleevless</span> <span class="chatlog__markdown-mention" title="ratchetfreak#1181">@ratchetfreak</span> <span class="chatlog__markdown-mention" title="bumbread27#9116">@bumbread</span> hey! I'm afraid I have to go...</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="bumbread27#9116" data-user-id="934740907385847858">bumbread</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 12:48 PM</span>
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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="Rudy#2467" data-user-id="517049944885166091">Rudy</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 12:48 PM</span>
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                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve"><img loading="lazy" class="chatlog__emoji " alt="👋" title="wave" src="files\twemoji_1f44b.svg"> thanks for joining <span class="chatlog__markdown-mention" title="raysan5#2998">@raysan5</span> ! It was an honor</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="greensleevless#3859" data-user-id="506594138683342849">greensleevless</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 12:49 PM</span>
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                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Yea same here (in the middle of moving) - this has been wonderful yall! Thank you! <img loading="lazy" class="chatlog__emoji " alt="🙂" title="slight_smile" src="files\twemoji_1f642.svg"></span>

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                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/d14912903532d0bfd3b1ae0e7288de9e-A1757.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="raysan5#2998" data-user-id="427495923955007491">raysan5</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 12:49 PM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">thank you very much for the fishbowl, it was great! see you around! <img loading="lazy" class="chatlog__emoji " alt="😄" title="smile" src="files\twemoji_1f604.svg"></span>

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                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/cfed2ed27b658eea282b1babeab0b3a5-AEA5D.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="Rudy#2467" data-user-id="517049944885166091">Rudy</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 12:49 PM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">It's about the stop time anyway so I'm okay with wrapping up the official discussion and moving anything residual to <span class="chatlog__markdown-mention">#fishbowl-audience</span> as we're losing participants</span>

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                    <div class="chatlog__reactions">
                            <div class="chatlog__reaction" title="thumbsup">
                                <img class="chatlog__emoji chatlog__emoji--small" alt="👍" src="files/1f44d-B3F5F.svg" loading="lazy">
                                <span class="chatlog__reaction-count">1</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 12:50 PM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">yeah if there's nothing else pending, sounds good to me</span>

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                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="Rudy#2467" data-user-id="517049944885166091">Rudy</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 12:50 PM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">cc <span class="chatlog__markdown-mention" title="bvisness#0001">@bvisness</span></span>

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                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/cfed2ed27b658eea282b1babeab0b3a5-AEA5D.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="Rudy#2467" data-user-id="517049944885166091">Rudy</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 12:53 PM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Really appreciate everyone who was willing to participate.</span>

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                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="bvisness#0001" data-user-id="132715550571888640">bvisness</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jun 17, 2021 12:54 PM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">All right then, thanks for participating, everyone!</span>

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                            <div class="chatlog__reaction" title="regional_indicator_t">
                                <img class="chatlog__emoji chatlog__emoji--small" alt="🇹" src="files/1f1f9-1C464.svg" loading="lazy">
                                <span class="chatlog__reaction-count">3</span>
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                            <div class="chatlog__reaction" title="regional_indicator_y">
                                <img class="chatlog__emoji chatlog__emoji--small" alt="🇾" src="files/1f1fe-DBD8A.svg" loading="lazy">
                                <span class="chatlog__reaction-count">3</span>
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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-855173706782081054" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="855173706782081054">
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                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="17-Jun-21 12:55 PM">12:55</div>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">You can read the whole conversation from the beginning here: <a href="https://discord.com/channels/239737791225790464/707742863076622358/855129752028971058" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '855129752028971058')">https://discord.com/channels/239737791225790464/707742863076622358/855129752028971058</a></span>

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                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="17-Jun-21 12:55 PM">12:55</div>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">And you can see all our other fishbowl conversations by checking the pinned messages!</span>

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