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                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="bvisness#0001">bvisness</div>
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                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '1025816669450416138')">
<strong>Topic:</strong> Entrepreneurship and the Handmade ethos                                    </span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="bvisness#0001" data-user-id="132715550571888640">bvisness</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 10:09 AM</span>
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                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Hello everyone! Welcome to another fishbowl. I'm excited about this one. Let me start by introducing our guests.</span>

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                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 10:10 AM">10:10</div>
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                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">We have:</span>

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                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 10:10 AM">10:10</div>
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                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">- Abner Coimbre (<span class="chatlog__markdown-mention" title="abnercoimbre#4546">@Abner Coimbre</span>), host of <a class="inserted-after" href="https://handmade-seattle.com/" target="_blank">Handmade Seattle</a></span>

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                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 10:11 AM">10:11</div>
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                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">- Allen Webster (<span class="chatlog__markdown-mention" title="Allen4th#9584">@Allen4th</span>), creator of <a class="inserted-after" href="https://4coder.net/" target="_blank">4coder</a> and member of the <a class="inserted-after" href="https://dion.systems/" target="_blank">Dion Systems</a> team</span>

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                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 10:11 AM">10:11</div>
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                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">- Andrew Reece (<span class="chatlog__markdown-mention" title="azmr#4870">@Andrew (azmr)</span>), creator of <a class="inserted-after" href="https://whitebox.systems/" target="_blank">WhiteBox</a></span>

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                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 10:12 AM">10:12</div>
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                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">- Demetri Spanos (<span class="chatlog__markdown-mention" title="demetrispanos#5588">@demetrispanos</span>), <a class="inserted-after" href="https://www.ycombinator.com/" target="_blank">Y Combinator</a> alumnus and general fount of wisdom</span>

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                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 10:13 AM">10:13</div>
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                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">- Nick Seavert (<span class="chatlog__markdown-mention" title="JangaFX#1318">@Nick Seavert - JangaFX</span>) and Morten Vassvik (<span class="chatlog__markdown-mention" title="vassvik#0798">@mv</span>), founders of JangaFX, creators of <a class="inserted-after" href="https://jangafx.com/software/embergen/" target="_blank">EmberGen</a></span>

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                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 10:13 AM">10:13</div>
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                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">- Phillip Trudeau (<span class="chatlog__markdown-mention" title="philliptrudeau#8865">@philliptrudeau</span>), co-creator of the game <a class="inserted-after" href="https://happenlance.com/" target="_blank">Sir Happenlance and the Spear of Density</a></span>

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                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 10:14 AM">10:14</div>
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                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">- <a class="inserted-after" href="https://twitter.com/ZeanithDev" target="_blank">Zeanith</a> (<span class="chatlog__markdown-mention" title="Zeanith#5921">@Zeanith</span>) (I don't know your real name sorry!), the community member who suggested this topic!</span>

                            <span class="chatlog__edited-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 10:14 AM">(edited)</span>
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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="Zeanith#5921" data-user-id="90567213731303424">Zeanith</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 10:14 AM</span>
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                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">In by default bois</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="bvisness#0001" data-user-id="132715550571888640">bvisness</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 10:15 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">All these guests are here because of their experience with software entrepreneurship in some form. Handmade Seattle is now an independent business, WhiteBox has received multiple grants and employs several community members, 4coder is of course a well-loved editor in the community and so on.</span>

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                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 10:17 AM">10:17</div>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Rather than having me try to list all of this though, I'd rather hear from the guests themselves. So let's have everyone describe their background in the business of software, starting with <span class="chatlog__markdown-mention" title="JangaFX#1318">@Nick Seavert - JangaFX</span> and <span class="chatlog__markdown-mention" title="vassvik#0798">@mv</span> of JangaFX!</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="JangaFX#1318" data-user-id="218509869282492416">Nick Seavert - JangaFX</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 10:19 AM</span>
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                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">So my name is Nick Seavert as mentioned, I founded JangaFX in 2016 and since then we've generated millions of dollars in sales. We have 16 employees, we use <a class="inserted-after" href="https://odin-lang.org/" target="_blank">Odin-lang</a> exclusively (a fantastic handmade project), our software for visual effects is used in almost every major game studio, and we have numerous other products in the works. For myself, I live in Austin, TX, USA. I enjoy racing (gokarts/formula 4), gaming, volunteering, entrepreneurship, and general arts. Twitter: <a href="https://twitter.com/nickseavert" target="_blank">https://twitter.com/nickseavert</a>
I manage everything business, and know a lot about how to sell software, direct products, find needs in the market, and more*</span>

                            <span class="chatlog__edited-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 10:20 AM">(edited)</span>
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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="vassvik#0798" data-user-id="132475694293843968">mv</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 10:19 AM</span>
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                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Mine will be longer</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(155, 89, 182)" title="abnercoimbre#4546" data-user-id="754449440483311728">Abner Coimbre</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 10:20 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">(We're all typing out our blurbs <img loading="lazy" class="chatlog__emoji " alt="🙂" title="slight_smile" src="files/twemoji_1f642.svg">)</span>

                            <span class="chatlog__edited-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 10:20 AM">(edited)</span>
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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="vassvik#0798" data-user-id="132475694293843968">mv</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 10:22 AM</span>
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                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">My background is in computational physics, but the programming bit is almost entirely self-taught. I went through most of the motions of a PhD in computational fluid dynamics, but ended up being more interested in computer graphics and modelling in general rather than the more formal "research" part of academic physics, which includes writing papers and being part of the general academic meat grinder. I did not end up finishing the PhD degree, and instead ended up going all in on JangaFX with Nick here by the time the contract ran out. Never looked back since. 

I used to be quite active in the Handmade community, especially prior to going all in on JangaFX, but as time went by I've had less time to spend on it, and I've slowly drifted away from being directly active in the community, but I still occasionally keep in touch with old contacts. 

I've been a big champion of Odin since (close to) its inception, creating and maintaining the fairly popular odin-glfw and odin-gl libraries (which in essence are now part of the <a class="inserted-after" href="https://pkg.odin-lang.org/vendor/" target="_blank">Vendor collection</a> and are no longer maintained by me). As a consequence I've also made the (arguably risky) bet of using Odin for our main tool EmberGen.  

It's a bit of a meme that most tech companies start with two main founders, one more business oriented and one more tech oriented, and ours isn't that different. I'm sure we'll chat a little bit about this topic eventually, and maybe it's a good starting point for a discussion, namely what makes a good composition of skills, experience and interests for starting a business, especially a "home-grown" one that doesn't necessarily follow more traditional guidelines and expectations.</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 10:26 AM</span>
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                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">my background:

I've been working as an independent consultant, or as part of a founding team, for the last 17 years (overlapping with the final years of my PhD). I've also worked for a couple of years as a professor doing research, which has some conceptual overlap with entrepreneurship (even if the incentive structures are very different). 

I've been advisor / angel investor in about 15 garage-level startups, including four valued over \$100M and one valued over \$1B, so I have seen the entire arc from nothing to great success a few times over (even if, unfortunately, the "great" part was not in my own companies :) Perhaps needless to say, I've also seen 11/15 not achieve those levels of success :)

From a technical perspective, I'm a computational mathematician/scientist. Most of my work has been somewhere around AI/ML/Optimization/Robots/Quant-Finance.</span>

                            <span class="chatlog__edited-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 10:31 AM">(edited)</span>
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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="azmr#4870" data-user-id="240986595749134336">Andrew (azmr)</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 10:31 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">hey everyone, my history of entrepreneurship has all been fairly low-key:
- I started a leatherwork business alongside another job in my gap year, which involved a little bit of product design for a smart watch-strap startup
- I worked for a fairly early-stage Ergonomics/Human Factors consultancy after getting my Ergonomics degree
- After that I did some gymnastics and school event photography

I've been working on WhiteBox since then!
If you're not familiar, it's a tool for showing you how your code behaves as you write it - a live debugger.
The company side of this has included:
- prototyping &amp; questioning around the problem with people at Handmade Seattle 2019
- setting up a UK Ltd company (equivalent to a US corporation) as a solo founder
- a few local council-run "startup/business courses"
- a year in a local tech incubator "BetaDen", which included a moderate grant and some mentorship
- a small "Young Innovators" grant from Innovate UK, alongside some more mentorship
- demos for Handmade Seattle
- presenting WhiteBox to C students at Imperial College London and making it available in their labs
- contracting programmers from HMN and starting to learn how to "manage" programmers (as well as just work in a team on a software project, which was new to me)</span>

                            <span class="chatlog__edited-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 10:34 AM">(edited)</span>
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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="bvisness#0001" data-user-id="132715550571888640">bvisness</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 10:33 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve"><div class="chatlog__markdown-quote"><div class="chatlog__markdown-quote-border"></div><div class="chatlog__markdown-quote-content">I started a leatherwork business
</div></div>ok this I had no idea about lol</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="Allen4th#9584" data-user-id="273134589000810496">Allen4th</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 10:41 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">My journey of entrepreneurship with 4coder was mostly accidental. Not that I didn't want to do an independent business - I did - but I never thought hard about how to do that. 4coder was a project that came out of my interests as a programmer, and it found enough of an audience that it sort of became a side business. I was also at a point in life where extra income was very helpful (I was attending college and paying rent) so I had some incentive to actually convert my little side project into a business.

I'll throw in a topic segue here too. As someone who has "experienced" running a business, but doesn't feel particularly skilled at that side of things, I see this as a great opportunity to learn from ya'll more successful entrepreneurs. So my first quest is, what even <em>is</em> entrepreneurship? Second question, what route do you take to get good at it? Is this something you can practice?</span>

                            <span class="chatlog__edited-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 10:41 AM">(edited)</span>
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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(155, 89, 182)" title="abnercoimbre#4546" data-user-id="754449440483311728">Abner Coimbre</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 10:47 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Hi everyone, hope this isn't too long-winded! I was a systems programmer throughout my 20s. First, a lucky break at Kennedy Space Center <img loading="lazy" class="chatlog__emoji " alt="🚀" title="rocket" src="files/twemoji_1f680.svg">

That experience shaped the rest of my career (you can read my essay about their philosophy: <a href="https://observer.com/2017/07/a-look-into-nasa-coding-philosophy-kennedy-space-center-programming/" target="_blank">https://observer.com/2017/07/a-look-into-nasa-coding-philosophy-kennedy-space-center-programming/</a>) You'll see I mention Handmade as the only movement "out there" that had a similar philosophy. I wanted to make Handmade stronger, so Casey let me organize the Handmade community. With the help of an amazing dev team we founded <strong>Handmade Network</strong>.

I met Jonathan Blow and I worked under him for ~3 years on the Jai compiler, a bit of Sokoban, and the Braid HD Remake. Here's an old interview where Jon and I talk sometime before he hired me: <a href="https://handmadedev.show/ep-10-2016/" target="_blank">https://handmadedev.show/ep-10-2016/</a>

After Jon I did a stint for Cyan Worlds on Myst VR (the game shipped last year.) They gave me a proper sendoff here: <a href="https://cyan.com/2022/04/13/some-sad-happy-news-to-share/" target="_blank">https://cyan.com/2022/04/13/some-sad-happy-news-to-share/</a>

Finally you may remember Casey ran Handmade Con for a couple of years but then stopped. People asked me to take over and Casey gave me the greenlight <img loading="lazy" class="chatlog__emoji " alt="handmadeThumbsUp" title="handmadeThumbsUp" src="https://cdn.discordapp.com/emojis/857042369106804766.png">  I <em>very quickly</em> realized I'm just as much into human interactions as I am into computers, so I started running Handmade conferences full-time. Here's the 2022 announcement post: <a href="https://media.handmade-seattle.com/self-hosted-conference/" target="_blank">https://media.handmade-seattle.com/self-hosted-conference/</a></span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(155, 89, 182)" title="abnercoimbre#4546" data-user-id="754449440483311728">Abner Coimbre</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 10:54 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">So basically I've recently started my 30s and this is what I do: run <em>fully independent</em> conferences that hopefully grow each year to celebrate Handmade values. (I mention age so people realize it may take time to truly understand what you want take risks on.)</span>

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                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 10:54 AM">10:54</div>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">When I am not busy with the conference, I'm building a terminal emulator called Terminal Click. Each month we host Handmade meetups in Seattle where I demo the terminal. I will also give a terminal talk at my own conference this year (self-promotion at its peak... this was my plan ALL ALONG.)</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(22, 235, 183)" title="philliptrudeau#8865" data-user-id="335466817910996992">philliptrudeau</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 10:50 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Honoured to be here! I'll try to be brief:

I collaborated with Miles ( <span class="chatlog__markdown-mention" title="notnullnotvoid#6524">@notnullnotvoid</span> , <a href="https://twitter.com/notnullnotvoid" target="_blank">https://twitter.com/notnullnotvoid</a> ) to program &amp; produce an indie game on Steam. It released in October 2021 with positive reviews and it turned a profit. I'm proud of that, since many debut titles don't get there. These days I'm at WhiteBox with <span class="chatlog__markdown-mention" title="azmr#4870">@Andrew (azmr)</span> , helping with features and bugfixes.

I'm only representing my own personal opinion, not that of anyone on the Happenlance or WB teams!

Most indie game devs who finish a game become disappointed with their work's performance, but I feel they don't take their product seriously. As an indie game dev, you must acknowledge you are an entrepreneur running a small business and take on that role explicitly.

In the business-guy-technical-guy dichotomy, I guess I leaned more towards business-guy, although I wrote roughly half the game code.

Prior to this game, I was a high school student trying to ship games, then a uni student trying to ship games, then just a guy trying to ship games.</span>

                            <span class="chatlog__edited-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 10:50 AM">(edited)</span>
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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="bvisness#0001" data-user-id="132715550571888640">bvisness</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 10:20 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I'm definitely excited to learn more about the founding of JangaFX. Every time I visit the EmberGen page, it seems like there are 10 new major game studios listed...</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="bvisness#0001" data-user-id="132715550571888640">bvisness</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 10:23 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">So how did you two get in touch? Did you know each other prior to founding JangaFX?</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="JangaFX#1318" data-user-id="218509869282492416">Nick Seavert - JangaFX</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 10:24 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I randomly messaged Morten when I saw him post in a programming server <img loading="lazy" class="chatlog__emoji " alt="😄" title="smile" src="files/twemoji_1f604.svg"></span>

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                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 10:24 AM">10:24</div>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">He was very skeptical of course <img loading="lazy" class="chatlog__emoji " alt="😉" title="wink" src="files/twemoji_1f609.svg"></span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="vassvik#0798" data-user-id="132475694293843968">mv</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 10:25 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">you know those DMs you get where random people ask you to make something for them, and they offer to pay you $100</span>

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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025820731994546298" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025820731994546298">
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                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 10:25 AM">10:25</div>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">almost like that</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="JangaFX#1318" data-user-id="218509869282492416">Nick Seavert - JangaFX</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 10:25 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Except I was serious and had a plan to back it up</span>

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                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 10:25 AM">10:25</div>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">And I offered $200</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="vassvik#0798" data-user-id="132475694293843968">mv</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 10:27 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Nick had the vision for the company for the longest time, long before I entered into the picture. What we do now is essentially making the tools he wish he had available as he worked as a professional VFX artist</span>

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                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 10:31 AM">10:31</div>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">So while Nick primarily deals with the business aspect of what we do he still channels the archetypical user of our tools. This quality and motivation can be a significant benefit when starting a company, so you always stay grounded and have a decent idea of what to do and what's needed.</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="JangaFX#1318" data-user-id="218509869282492416">Nick Seavert - JangaFX</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 10:34 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I had inklings of the idea for EmberGen around 2007 when valve released their particle editor for half life 2 episode 2. I was hooked on visual effects for my own mods back then but had no way to make the assets I needed other than using valves existing texture library. The other tools were far too expensive for me at that point. In 2012, that's when I started to seriously consider making a new tool and of course, it wasn't until 2016 that I started the journey to actually making it a reality. From 2014-2016 I had experience in other startups to gain the knowledge I needed to do my own company. Those other startups failed which told me what <em>not</em> to do. Originally I'd planned to call EmberGen "ExploGen" but that was taken <img loading="lazy" class="chatlog__emoji " alt="😦" title="frowning" src="files/twemoji_1f626.svg"></span>

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                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="" title="JangaFX#1318">Nick Seavert - JangaFX</div>
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                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '1025820826584498277')">
And I offered $200                                    </span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="vassvik#0798" data-user-id="132475694293843968">mv</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 10:34 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">just checked, it was actually $300</span>

                            <span class="chatlog__edited-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 10:34 AM">(edited)</span>
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                                <img class="chatlog__emoji chatlog__emoji--small" alt="😅" src="files/1f605-9D9DC.svg" loading="lazy">
                                <span class="chatlog__reaction-count">3</span>
                            </div>
                            <div class="chatlog__reaction" title="moneybag">
                                <img class="chatlog__emoji chatlog__emoji--small" alt="💰" src="files/1f4b0-A3F17.svg" loading="lazy">
                                <span class="chatlog__reaction-count">4</span>
                            </div>
                            <div class="chatlog__reaction" title="joy">
                                <img class="chatlog__emoji chatlog__emoji--small" alt="😂" src="files/1f602-20224.svg" loading="lazy">
                                <span class="chatlog__reaction-count">2</span>
                            </div>
                    </div>
            </div>
        </div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-group">
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025823264775360532" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025823264775360532">
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            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                        <div class="chatlog__reference-symbol"></div>
                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/500a026bbe575d128b125d0cf0651a26-22B85.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                        <div class="chatlog__reference">
                                <img class="chatlog__reference-avatar" src="files/ac726b5857221d734c474b9280b0f2ae-EC09E.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="" title="vassvik#0798">mv</div>
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-content">
                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '1025823106675257374')">
just checked, it was actually $300                                    </span>

                                        <span class="chatlog__reference-edited-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 10:34 AM">(edited)</span>
                                </div>
                        </div>
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="JangaFX#1318" data-user-id="218509869282492416">Nick Seavert - JangaFX</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 10:35 AM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Thankfully we're all very well compensated at this point</span>

                            <span class="chatlog__edited-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 10:35 AM">(edited)</span>
                    </div>




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<div class="chatlog__message-group">
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025823299248341094" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025823299248341094">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/ac726b5857221d734c474b9280b0f2ae-EC09E.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="vassvik#0798" data-user-id="132475694293843968">mv</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 10:35 AM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve"><div class="chatlog__markdown-quote"><div class="chatlog__markdown-quote-border"></div><div class="chatlog__markdown-quote-content">Originally I'd planned to call EmberGen "ExploGen" but that was taken <img loading="lazy" class="chatlog__emoji " alt="😦" title="frowning" src="files/twemoji_1f626.svg">
</div></div>
You always had a thing for names</span>

                    </div>




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    </div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-group">
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025823351257702520" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025823351257702520">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/1963eacbf364164efce1c597dc66aeab-E6901.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="bvisness#0001" data-user-id="132715550571888640">bvisness</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 10:35 AM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">For reference, what was the user experience of EmberGen's competitors like at the time?</span>

                            <span class="chatlog__edited-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 10:35 AM">(edited)</span>
                    </div>




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<div class="chatlog__message-group">
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025823462121545738" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025823462121545738">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/ac726b5857221d734c474b9280b0f2ae-EC09E.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="vassvik#0798" data-user-id="132475694293843968">mv</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 10:36 AM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">was?</span>

                    </div>




            </div>
        </div>
    </div>
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025823494186999899" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025823494186999899">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 10:36 AM">10:36</div>
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve"><img loading="lazy" class="chatlog__emoji chatlog__emoji--large" alt="hahaha" title="hahaha" src="https://cdn.discordapp.com/emojis/572521957954813964.png"></span>

                    </div>




            </div>
        </div>
    </div>
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025823549363064905" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025823549363064905">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 10:36 AM">10:36</div>
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I'm sure Nick has the meme ready</span>

                    </div>




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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025823554639511652" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025823554639511652">
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                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/500a026bbe575d128b125d0cf0651a26-22B85.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                        <div class="chatlog__reference">
                                <img class="chatlog__reference-avatar" src="files/1963eacbf364164efce1c597dc66aeab-E6901.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="bvisness#0001">bvisness</div>
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-content">
                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '1025823351257702520')">
For reference, what was the user experience of EmberGen's competitors like at the time?                                    </span>

                                        <span class="chatlog__reference-edited-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 10:35 AM">(edited)</span>
                                </div>
                        </div>
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="JangaFX#1318" data-user-id="218509869282492416">Nick Seavert - JangaFX</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 10:36 AM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Blue screen of death, full hard drives, computer unusable for 12-24 hours</span>

                    </div>




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<div class="chatlog__message-group">
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025823573241249953" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025823573241249953">
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                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/1963eacbf364164efce1c597dc66aeab-E6901.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                        <div class="chatlog__reference">
                                <img class="chatlog__reference-avatar" src="files/ac726b5857221d734c474b9280b0f2ae-EC09E.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="" title="vassvik#0798">mv</div>
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-content">
                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '1025823462121545738')">
was?                                    </span>

                                </div>
                        </div>
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="bvisness#0001" data-user-id="132715550571888640">bvisness</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 10:36 AM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">well that was my next question <img loading="lazy" class="chatlog__emoji " alt="😛" title="stuck_out_tongue" src="files/twemoji_1f61b.svg"></span>

                    </div>




            </div>
        </div>
    </div>
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025823617897996379" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025823617897996379">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 10:36 AM">10:36</div>
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">yikes</span>

                    </div>




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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025823651842490389" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025823651842490389">
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                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/ac726b5857221d734c474b9280b0f2ae-EC09E.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="vassvik#0798" data-user-id="132475694293843968">mv</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 10:36 AM</span>
                    </div>


                    <div class="chatlog__attachment " onclick="">

                            <a href="files/unknown-F17B2.png" target="_blank">
                                <img class="chatlog__attachment-media" src="files/unknown-F17B2.png" alt="Image attachment" title="Image: unknown.png (653.81 KB)" loading="lazy">
                            </a>
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                    <div class="chatlog__reactions">
                            <div class="chatlog__reaction" title="joy">
                                <img class="chatlog__emoji chatlog__emoji--small" alt="😂" src="files/1f602-20224.svg" loading="lazy">
                                <span class="chatlog__reaction-count">11</span>
                            </div>
                    </div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-group">
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025823690061008986" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025823690061008986">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/1963eacbf364164efce1c597dc66aeab-E6901.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="bvisness#0001" data-user-id="132715550571888640">bvisness</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 10:37 AM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">so, from simulations taking 12-24 hours, to simulations happening in real time</span>

                    </div>




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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025823723799978045" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025823723799978045">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/500a026bbe575d128b125d0cf0651a26-22B85.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="JangaFX#1318" data-user-id="218509869282492416">Nick Seavert - JangaFX</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 10:37 AM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">not to mention, if it didn't crash and ruin your sim, there was a 95% chance you wouldn't like the result anyway.</span>

                    </div>




            </div>
        </div>
    </div>
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025823753273356288" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025823753273356288">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 10:37 AM">10:37</div>
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">So you have to do it over and over and over again</span>

                    </div>




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<div class="chatlog__message-group">
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025823793626759238" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025823793626759238">
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            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/ac726b5857221d734c474b9280b0f2ae-EC09E.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="vassvik#0798" data-user-id="132475694293843968">mv</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 10:37 AM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">EmberGen wasn't initially included ,Nick added it at some point and it stick xD</span>

                    </div>




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<div class="chatlog__message-group">
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025824123819147285" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025824123819147285">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
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                        <div class="chatlog__reference-symbol"></div>
                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/c72723180bf059e8dbc35e6eaf9e0fa1-1FB1F.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                        <div class="chatlog__reference">
                                <img class="chatlog__reference-avatar" src="files/500a026bbe575d128b125d0cf0651a26-22B85.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="" title="JangaFX#1318">Nick Seavert - JangaFX</div>
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-content">
                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '1025823753273356288')">
So you have to do it over and over and over again                                    </span>

                                </div>
                        </div>
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="azmr#4870" data-user-id="240986595749134336">Andrew (azmr)</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 10:38 AM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">when you're making "design tools" (in the broadest sense), immediate feedback that lets you iterate on ideas quickly is so useful</span>

                            <span class="chatlog__edited-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 10:39 AM">(edited)</span>
                    </div>




            </div>
        </div>
    </div>
</div>
<div class="chatlog__message-group">
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025825973914046524" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025825973914046524">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/63a0747fe1942827a3b01691744032e0-39532.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="gerard#4812" data-user-id="340592323295576064">gerard (audience)</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 10:46 AM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Making tools that shorten the feedback loop of the creator are always a good start point from where to grow a revolution, applies to EmberGen and WhiteBox
<a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PGDrIy1G1gU">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PGDrIy1G1gU</a></span>

                    </div>


                        <div class="chatlog__embed">
                                <div class="chatlog__embed-color-pill" style="background-color: rgba(255, 0, 0, 255)"></div>

                            <div class="chatlog__embed-content-container">
                                <div class="chatlog__embed-content">
                                    <div class="chatlog__embed-text">
                                            <div class="chatlog__embed-author-container">

                                                        <a class="chatlog__embed-author-link" href="https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCYd9fAK7iSd3fJ4BBxRYFng">
                                                            <div class="chatlog__embed-author">Pavel Evstigneyev</div>
                                                        </a>
                                            </div>

                                            <div class="chatlog__embed-title">
                                                    <a class="chatlog__embed-title-link" href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PGDrIy1G1gU">
                                                        <div class="chatlog__markdown chatlog__markdown-preserve">Bret Victor - Inventing on Principle</div>
                                                    </a>
                                            </div>

                                        <div class="chatlog__embed-youtube-container">
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            </div>
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</div>
<div class="chatlog__message-group" style="">
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025827982985678969" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025827982985678969">
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            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/c72723180bf059e8dbc35e6eaf9e0fa1-1FB1F.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="azmr#4870" data-user-id="240986595749134336">Andrew (azmr)</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 10:54 AM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">this video (among others of Bret Victor) was definitely part of the milieu that inspired WhiteBox</span>

                            <span class="chatlog__edited-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 10:54 AM">(edited)</span>
                    </div>




                    <div class="chatlog__reactions">
                            <div class="chatlog__reaction" title="smart">
                                <img class="chatlog__emoji chatlog__emoji--small" alt="smart" src="files/867119742622892042-C589A.png" loading="lazy">
                                <span class="chatlog__reaction-count">2</span>
                            </div>
                    </div>
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</div>



<div class="chatlog__message-group">
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025824138889281616" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025824138889281616">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/ac726b5857221d734c474b9280b0f2ae-EC09E.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="vassvik#0798" data-user-id="132475694293843968">mv</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 10:38 AM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">10-20 hours for simulation, 10-20 hours for rendering, all for a 3-5 second clip. In a way you can say rapid iteration is one of our main goals as well as ease of use. That our  tool is actually "fast" is sort of only incidental</span>

                    </div>




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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025824403860246538" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025824403860246538">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/1963eacbf364164efce1c597dc66aeab-E6901.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="bvisness#0001" data-user-id="132715550571888640">bvisness</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 10:39 AM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">it's a very stark difference from the state of the art, apparently</span>

                    </div>




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    </div>
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025824463813628097" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025824463813628097">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 10:40 AM">10:40</div>
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">what gave you the confidence that you could achieve such rapid iteration?</span>

                    </div>




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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025824499100307567" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025824499100307567">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/500a026bbe575d128b125d0cf0651a26-22B85.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="JangaFX#1318" data-user-id="218509869282492416">Nick Seavert - JangaFX</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 10:40 AM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Naievity</span>

                    </div>




            </div>
        </div>
    </div>
</div>



<div class="chatlog__message-group" style="">
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025824582873133057" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025824582873133057">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/c72723180bf059e8dbc35e6eaf9e0fa1-1FB1F.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="azmr#4870" data-user-id="240986595749134336">Andrew (azmr)</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 10:40 AM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">a very important attribute for founders!</span>

                    </div>




            </div>
        </div>
    </div>
</div><div class="chatlog__message-group" style="">
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025824717262835813" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025824717262835813">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                        <div class="chatlog__reference-symbol"></div>
                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/ac726b5857221d734c474b9280b0f2ae-EC09E.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                        <div class="chatlog__reference">
                                <img class="chatlog__reference-avatar" src="files/500a026bbe575d128b125d0cf0651a26-22B85.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="" title="JangaFX#1318">Nick Seavert - JangaFX</div>
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-content">
                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '1025824499100307567')">
Naievity                                    </span>

                                </div>
                        </div>
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="vassvik#0798" data-user-id="132475694293843968">mv</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 10:41 AM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Me: This sounds a bit hard to do
Nick: No you're wrong. It's definitly possible

that's just about how the conversation went</span>

                            <span class="chatlog__edited-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 10:41 AM">(edited)</span>
                    </div>




            </div>
        </div>
    </div>
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025824793322324121" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025824793322324121">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 10:41 AM">10:41</div>
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I was wrong, Nick was right</span>

                    </div>




            </div>
        </div>
    </div>
</div><div class="chatlog__message-group" style="">
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025824952684920933" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025824952684920933">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                        <div class="chatlog__reference-symbol"></div>
                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/500a026bbe575d128b125d0cf0651a26-22B85.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                        <div class="chatlog__reference">
                                <img class="chatlog__reference-avatar" src="files/ac726b5857221d734c474b9280b0f2ae-EC09E.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="" title="vassvik#0798">mv</div>
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-content">
                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '1025824793322324121')">
I was wrong, Nick was right                                    </span>

                                </div>
                        </div>
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="JangaFX#1318" data-user-id="218509869282492416">Nick Seavert - JangaFX</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 10:42 AM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I need to screenshot this</span>

                    </div>




            </div>
        </div>
    </div>
</div><div class="chatlog__message-group">
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025824575465996371" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025824575465996371">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/ac726b5857221d734c474b9280b0f2ae-EC09E.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="vassvik#0798" data-user-id="132475694293843968">mv</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 10:40 AM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">The large VFX shops can afford simply throwing money at compute power, and can brute force iterate by doing a ton of redundant work (called <a class="inserted-after" href="http://patrickvfx.blogspot.com/2012/01/definition-of-wedging-in-fx.html" target="_blank">wedging</a>), and 90% or more of the work is eventually thrown away. It's been very hard for anyone small to do anything efficiently, even after getting past the UX/UI hurdle</span>

                    </div>




            </div>
        </div>
    </div>
</div>











<div class="chatlog__message-group">
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025824707611729950" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025824707611729950">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/500a026bbe575d128b125d0cf0651a26-22B85.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="JangaFX#1318" data-user-id="218509869282492416">Nick Seavert - JangaFX</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 10:41 AM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">At GDC in 2019 I was told that I was wasting my time and that it wasn't possible, but I had a hunch that it was. We were actually the first tool to ever put the sim and render passes together</span>

                    </div>




            </div>
        </div>
    </div>
</div>











<div class="chatlog__message-group">
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025825086076362792" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025825086076362792">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/ac726b5857221d734c474b9280b0f2ae-EC09E.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="vassvik#0798" data-user-id="132475694293843968">mv</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 10:42 AM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">We did actually launch our first paid early-access alpha version just days before Handmade Seattle 2019 that same year, and it's been rolling every since</span>

                    </div>




            </div>
        </div>
    </div>
</div>



<div class="chatlog__message-group">
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025825232755359856" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025825232755359856">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/500a026bbe575d128b125d0cf0651a26-22B85.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="JangaFX#1318" data-user-id="218509869282492416">Nick Seavert - JangaFX</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 10:43 AM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Which we ended up doing this because our bank account was going to be negative and launched what we had on a whim</span>

                    </div>




            </div>
        </div>
    </div>
</div>



<div class="chatlog__message-group">
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025825308630331432" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025825308630331432">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/ac726b5857221d734c474b9280b0f2ae-EC09E.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="vassvik#0798" data-user-id="132475694293843968">mv</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 10:43 AM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Insignificant detail</span>

                    </div>




            </div>
        </div>
    </div>
</div>



<div class="chatlog__message-group" style="">
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025825380965302363" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025825380965302363">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/500a026bbe575d128b125d0cf0651a26-22B85.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="JangaFX#1318" data-user-id="218509869282492416">Nick Seavert - JangaFX</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 10:43 AM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">We had built hype for many months prior thankfully and had an email list to send the announcement to <img loading="lazy" class="chatlog__emoji " alt="😄" title="smile" src="files/twemoji_1f604.svg"></span>

                    </div>




            </div>
        </div>
    </div>
</div><div class="chatlog__message-group">
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025825338669932564" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025825338669932564">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/c72723180bf059e8dbc35e6eaf9e0fa1-1FB1F.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="azmr#4870" data-user-id="240986595749134336">Andrew (azmr)</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 10:43 AM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve"><div class="chatlog__markdown-quote"><div class="chatlog__markdown-quote-border"></div><div class="chatlog__markdown-quote-content">what even <em>is</em> entrepreneurship
</div></div>I think the basics of this are "solving problems for people in a way they're willing to pay for"</span>

                    </div>




            </div>
        </div>
    </div>
</div>







<div class="chatlog__message-group">
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025825756837843094" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025825756837843094">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/500a026bbe575d128b125d0cf0651a26-22B85.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="JangaFX#1318" data-user-id="218509869282492416">Nick Seavert - JangaFX</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 10:45 AM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">+1 - Providing value to people</span>

                    </div>




            </div>
        </div>
    </div>
</div>



<div class="chatlog__message-group">
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025825822357074052" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025825822357074052">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/ac726b5857221d734c474b9280b0f2ae-EC09E.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="vassvik#0798" data-user-id="132475694293843968">mv</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 10:45 AM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">"solving (real and useful) problems for people in a way they're willing to pay for (and will actually benefit from)"

there's plenty of not-useful problems to solve. there has to be an actual real tangible problem to solve that makes it valuable. people are willing to pay for non-useful jank, too</span>

                    </div>




            </div>
        </div>
    </div>
</div>



<div class="chatlog__message-group">
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025825968180449330" class="chatlog__message-container" data-message-id="1025825968180449330">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/500a026bbe575d128b125d0cf0651a26-22B85.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="JangaFX#1318" data-user-id="218509869282492416">Nick Seavert - JangaFX</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 10:46 AM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Solving a real problem ensures that you'll have a long-term sustainable business</span>

                    </div>




                    <div class="chatlog__reactions">
                            <div class="chatlog__reaction" title="100">
                                <img class="chatlog__emoji chatlog__emoji--small" alt="💯" src="files/1f4af-2188D.svg" loading="lazy">
                                <span class="chatlog__reaction-count">1</span>
                            </div>
                    </div>
            </div>
        </div>
    </div>
</div>







<div class="chatlog__message-group">
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025826233570840678" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025826233570840678">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                        <div class="chatlog__reference-symbol"></div>
                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/c72723180bf059e8dbc35e6eaf9e0fa1-1FB1F.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                        <div class="chatlog__reference">
                                <img class="chatlog__reference-avatar" src="files/ac726b5857221d734c474b9280b0f2ae-EC09E.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="" title="vassvik#0798">mv</div>
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-content">
                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '1025825822357074052')">
"solving (real and useful) problems for people in a way they're willing to pay for (and will actually benefit from)"

there's plenty of not-useful problems to solve. there has to be an actual real tangible problem to solve that makes it valuable. people are willing to pay for non-useful jank, too                                    </span>

                                </div>
                        </div>
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="azmr#4870" data-user-id="240986595749134336">Andrew (azmr)</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 10:47 AM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">to me this is like the difference between "what is art?" and "what is <em>good</em> art?" <img loading="lazy" class="chatlog__emoji " alt="😁" title="grin" src="files/twemoji_1f601.svg"></span>

                    </div>




            </div>
        </div>
    </div>
</div>



<div class="chatlog__message-group">
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025826524865249310" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025826524865249310">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/ac726b5857221d734c474b9280b0f2ae-EC09E.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="vassvik#0798" data-user-id="132475694293843968">mv</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 10:48 AM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">yes</span>

                    </div>




            </div>
        </div>
    </div>
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025826578539749477" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025826578539749477">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 10:48 AM">10:48</div>
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">something something AI</span>

                    </div>




            </div>
        </div>
    </div>
</div>



<div class="chatlog__message-group" style="">
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025827708678197289" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025827708678197289">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                        <div class="chatlog__reference-symbol"></div>
                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/cbdd38f420dd16b5f8a79b9aefd66692-078C7.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                        <div class="chatlog__reference">
                                <img class="chatlog__reference-avatar" src="files/500a026bbe575d128b125d0cf0651a26-22B85.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="" title="JangaFX#1318">Nick Seavert - JangaFX</div>
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-content">
                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '1025825968180449330')">
Solving a real problem ensures that you'll have a long-term sustainable business                                    </span>

                                </div>
                        </div>
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(22, 235, 183)" title="philliptrudeau#8865" data-user-id="335466817910996992">philliptrudeau</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 10:53 AM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">This might be one of the reasons for the volatility and risk of game development!</span>

                    </div>




            </div>
        </div>
    </div>
</div><div class="chatlog__message-group" style="">
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025827784272138290" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025827784272138290">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/500a026bbe575d128b125d0cf0651a26-22B85.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="JangaFX#1318" data-user-id="218509869282492416">Nick Seavert - JangaFX</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 10:53 AM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Games are probably a pretty bad bet <img loading="lazy" class="chatlog__emoji " alt="😛" title="stuck_out_tongue" src="files/twemoji_1f61b.svg"> (entrepreneurially)</span>

                            <span class="chatlog__edited-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 10:53 AM">(edited)</span>
                    </div>




                    <div class="chatlog__reactions">
                            <div class="chatlog__reaction" title="sweat_smile">
                                <img class="chatlog__emoji chatlog__emoji--small" alt="😅" src="files/1f605-9D9DC.svg" loading="lazy">
                                <span class="chatlog__reaction-count">1</span>
                            </div>
                    </div>
            </div>
        </div>
    </div>
</div><div class="chatlog__message-group" style="">
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025827962651676803" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025827962651676803">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/500a026bbe575d128b125d0cf0651a26-22B85.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="JangaFX#1318" data-user-id="218509869282492416">Nick Seavert - JangaFX</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 10:54 AM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">If you want to make games, its better to build a software company to make a lot of money and pour said money into a game that you don't mind if it doesn't make its money back</span>

                    </div>




                    <div class="chatlog__reactions">
                            <div class="chatlog__reaction" title="thumbsup_tone1">
                                <img class="chatlog__emoji chatlog__emoji--small" alt="👍🏻" src="files/1f44d-1f3fb-346B9.svg" loading="lazy">
                                <span class="chatlog__reaction-count">1</span>
                            </div>
                    </div>
            </div>
        </div>
    </div>
</div><div class="chatlog__message-group" style="">
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025828597375700992" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025828597375700992">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(22, 235, 183)" title="philliptrudeau#8865" data-user-id="335466817910996992">philliptrudeau</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 10:56 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Sustainable game development at a small scale seems to involve collecting as much external funding as you can, since the product has no revenue by design for the first N <em>years</em> of the business. It's not an ideal situation if you prefer bootstrapping!</span>

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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025828838892130418" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025828838892130418">
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                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 10:57 AM">10:57</div>
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            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">"Games-and-tools company" a la Valve/Epic might be more snowballable, but those are the old guard...</span>

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            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="JangaFX#1318" data-user-id="218509869282492416">Nick Seavert - JangaFX</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 10:59 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I have a few game ideas for JangaFX one-day</span>

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                                <img class="chatlog__emoji chatlog__emoji--small" alt="😲" src="files/1f632-F7DEE.svg" loading="lazy">
                                <span class="chatlog__reaction-count">1</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 11:00 AM">11:00</div>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Seems like unity is making the mistake of not making any games at all</span>

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                                <img class="chatlog__emoji chatlog__emoji--small" alt="😂" src="files/1f602-20224.svg" loading="lazy">
                                <span class="chatlog__reaction-count">2</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 10:48 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I would distinguish entrepreneurship from business ... business is "doing something people will pay for", but entrepreneurship IMO has to include some element of trying something that may not work (though this can be satisfied by doing something on your own, as opposed to an established business)</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="vassvik#0798" data-user-id="132475694293843968">mv</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 10:49 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">would "doing something (unreasonably) better" be included in the latter?</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 10:49 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">yes definitely</span>

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                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 10:49 AM">10:49</div>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">if you think you can do something much better than existing solutions, that's certainly "something that may not work" (because if people knew it would work, they would do it)</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="vassvik#0798" data-user-id="132475694293843968">mv</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 10:50 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">In a way you could say what our currently suite of tools do isn't that spectacularly amazing and novel (yet) at face value. It's all about the execution (and marketing), where UI and UX is a huge part</span>

                            <span class="chatlog__edited-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 10:50 AM">(edited)</span>
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<div class="chatlog__message-group">
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                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="Allen4th#9584">Allen4th</div>
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-content">
                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '1025824683892949115')">
My journey of entrepreneurship with 4coder was mostly accidental. Not that I didn't want to do an independent business - I did - but I never thought hard about how to do that. 4coder was a project that came out of my interests as a programmer, and it found enough of an audience that it sort of became a side business. I was also at a point in life where extra income was very helpful (I was attending college and paying rent) so I had some incentive to actually convert my little side project into a business.

I'll throw in a topic segue here too. As someone who has "experienced" running a business, but doesn't feel particularly skilled at that side of things, I see this as a great opportunity to learn from ya'll more successful entrepreneurs. So my first quest is, what even <em>is</em> entrepreneurship? Second question, what route do you take to get good at it? Is this something you can practice?                                    </span>

                                        <span class="chatlog__reference-edited-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 10:41 AM">(edited)</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="azmr#4870" data-user-id="240986595749134336">Andrew (azmr)</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 10:51 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve"><div class="chatlog__markdown-quote"><div class="chatlog__markdown-quote-border"></div><div class="chatlog__markdown-quote-content">what route do you take to get good at it?
</div></div>I wouldn't class myself as particularly experienced or successful, but I remember a distinct feeling when starting out that I didn't really know what the landscape of things that needed paying attention to or what questions I should be asking. Filling out my map so that I at least know (more of) what I don't know has been helpful</span>

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                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="JangaFX#1318" data-user-id="218509869282492416">Nick Seavert - JangaFX</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 10:51 AM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I also follow a certain framework for business that I'll outline:
If it makes CENTS it makes sense. This is from my all time favorite book that is a must read: <a class="inserted-after" href="https://www.themillionairefastlane.com/" target="_blank">The millionaire fastlane</a> by MJ Demarco. Cheesy title, but changed my life and made JangaFX possible.
<strong> Control</strong>  - Do you have control over your platform? If google changes an algorithm are you screwed? If amazon deletes your store is it over for you? We have full control over our software distribution.
<strong> Entry</strong>  - How hard is it to get into your business? Can someone recode your software in a day or two and ship it? JangaFX has been tremendously difficult to start and the entry barrier is very high on many levels: Preexisting knowledge, physics programming, etc.
<strong> Need</strong>  - Is there a <em>need</em> for your product? Does it solve a very real problem? Waiting 12+ hours for a 2 second simulation is absolutely horrible. There was a massive need for EmberGen.
<strong> Time</strong>  - Can you eventually divorce your time from it? Can you go on vacation for a month and the business still runs itself, or can you sell it for a massive amount of money?
<strong> Scale</strong>  - How many potential customers are there? What's your ceiling? With software you have the ability to sell to the entire world.</span>

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                                <span class="chatlog__reaction-count">4</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="Zeanith#5921" data-user-id="90567213731303424">Zeanith</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 10:50 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">wondering if <span class="chatlog__markdown-mention" title="demetrispanos#5588">@demetrispanos</span> has observed key insights with his sample size of 15. 11/15 failures seems like the stereotypical failure rate that puts a lot of people off from even trying.</span>

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                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="vassvik#0798" data-user-id="132475694293843968">mv</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 10:51 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I can beat that, I've got a 1/1 track record</span>

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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025827387298029618" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025827387298029618">
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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 10:51 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">to clarify, 11/15 did not fail but they did not achieve the kind of spectacular success the 4 did</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="vassvik#0798" data-user-id="132475694293843968">mv</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 10:51 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">unicorns, eh</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 10:52 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I think maybe 4/11 could be called outright failures</span>

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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025827498149285888" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025827498149285888">
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                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 10:52 AM">10:52</div>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">"failures" in the sense that they were never able to pay any kind of return to investment / foregone salary</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="vassvik#0798" data-user-id="132475694293843968">mv</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 10:52 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">4/15 is pretty good as for being "spectacularly successful" isn't it, all things considered. The usual meme is that most businesses fail, isn't it?</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 10:53 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">well, I don't mean to promote myself, but yes I think 4/15 is actually a quite good hit rate</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 10:53 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">also I guess I should mention that separate from the 15, I was also a technical advisor to a VC firm for 3 years</span>

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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025827891579207862" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025827891579207862">
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                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 10:53 AM">10:53</div>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">and in that capacity I saw maybe 150 companies in detail</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="vassvik#0798" data-user-id="132475694293843968">mv</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 10:53 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">We probably represent the polar opposite direction of development I guess, considering we're completely bootstrapped with no VC or external investment</span>

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            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 10:55 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I learned through my experience in silicon valley that the style you describe is much more in line with my personality</span>

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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025829658949849268" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025829658949849268">
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                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/c72723180bf059e8dbc35e6eaf9e0fa1-1FB1F.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                        <div class="chatlog__reference">
                                <img class="chatlog__reference-avatar" src="files/89747c254631bcfd05c5c3e7141389aa-A1FB9.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588">demetrispanos</div>
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-content">
                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '1025827767260037242')">
well, I don't mean to promote myself, but yes I think 4/15 is actually a quite good hit rate                                    </span>

                                </div>
                        </div>
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="azmr#4870" data-user-id="240986595749134336">Andrew (azmr)</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 11:00 AM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">are there any particular patterns you can observe across the 4/15 that distinguish them from the other 11/15 (either things that look necessary or things that should be avoided at all costs)?</span>

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                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/89747c254631bcfd05c5c3e7141389aa-A1FB9.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 11:03 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">the 15 were already highly selected (basically only people I knew personally or knew people I knew personally) so I'd say most of it came down to picking the right markets at the right times (the $1B company actually started out doing something much much worse that made no money, before they switched to an entirely unrelated product)</span>

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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025830451572641873" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025830451572641873">
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                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 11:03 AM">11:03</div>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I'd say one thing to avoid for sure is a team dominated by people who mainly want to do impressive tech stuff</span>

                    </div>




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    </div>
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025830479406059530" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025830479406059530">
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                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 11:04 AM">11:04</div>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">(as opposed to making a compelling product)</span>

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                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/89747c254631bcfd05c5c3e7141389aa-A1FB9.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 11:04 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">impressive-tech people are good to have on the team, but not good to have in charge</span>

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                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/89747c254631bcfd05c5c3e7141389aa-A1FB9.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 11:05 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">to put it slightly differently, a company that makes money but has no impressive tech is still a business ... a company that has impressive tech but makes no money is not a business</span>

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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025830840862781510" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025830840862781510">
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                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 11:05 AM">11:05</div>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">and unless you are able to live without money, you need to be a business</span>

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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025831126746534028" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025831126746534028">
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                        <div class="chatlog__reference">
                                <img class="chatlog__reference-avatar" src="files/89747c254631bcfd05c5c3e7141389aa-A1FB9.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588">demetrispanos</div>
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-content">
                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '1025830543968960582')">
impressive-tech people are good to have on the team, but not good to have in charge                                    </span>

                                </div>
                        </div>
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="vassvik#0798" data-user-id="132475694293843968">mv</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 11:06 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">impressive tech people are a dime a dozen. there's thousands of people who could program something like EmberGen-lite in a couple weeks. that's 1% of the work</span>

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                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 11:06 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">yeah I agree</span>

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                                <img class="chatlog__reference-avatar" src="files/89747c254631bcfd05c5c3e7141389aa-A1FB9.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588">demetrispanos</div>
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-content">
                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '1025830451572641873')">
I'd say one thing to avoid for sure is a team dominated by people who mainly want to do impressive tech stuff                                    </span>

                                </div>
                        </div>
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="azmr#4870" data-user-id="240986595749134336">Andrew (azmr)</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 11:07 AM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">yeah, if you're involved in both the tech &amp; business side you need to be constantly asking "is this <em>actually</em> going to be helpful for users/customers?" when developing features - it's very easy to just rathole on "interesting problems"</span>

                            <span class="chatlog__edited-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 11:07 AM">(edited)</span>
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                                <img class="chatlog__reference-avatar" src="files/89747c254631bcfd05c5c3e7141389aa-A1FB9.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588">demetrispanos</div>
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-content">
                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '1025826904709795840')">
if you think you can do something much better than existing solutions, that's certainly "something that may not work" (because if people knew it would work, they would do it)                                    </span>

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                        </div>
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="vassvik#0798" data-user-id="132475694293843968">mv</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 11:00 AM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Maybe a bit cheesy as a term, and it wasn't mentioned earlier specifically, but my view is there's almost always ways to "innovate" in almost all aspects of business. With the right mindset it should be possible to pick any industry, ask the people working in that industry what they struggle with or what their primary source of friction is, and then innovate and improve on what they tell you. Bonus point if you've got a foot in that industry from the get-go. Maybe this viewport has one foot in each camp, though?</span>

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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025829894946562129" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025829894946562129">
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                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/500a026bbe575d128b125d0cf0651a26-22B85.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="JangaFX#1318" data-user-id="218509869282492416">Nick Seavert - JangaFX</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 11:01 AM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Customer service, features, usability, pricing, etc</span>

                    </div>




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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025830138644025444" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025830138644025444">
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                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/cbdd38f420dd16b5f8a79b9aefd66692-078C7.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(22, 235, 183)" title="philliptrudeau#8865" data-user-id="335466817910996992">philliptrudeau</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 11:02 AM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Scale is an important knob to tweak. The size of your audience seems controlled more by what product you choose to build than anything else!</span>

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                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="vassvik#0798" data-user-id="132475694293843968">mv</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 11:04 AM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I'd hazard a guess that most "spectacularly successful" businesses have massive scale potential, but that's not to say there's not a lot of room in the middle where there's potential moderate success at moderate scale (as in, not having to work another day in your life if you sell).</span>

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                    <div class="chatlog__reactions">
                            <div class="chatlog__reaction" title="thumbsup_tone1">
                                <img class="chatlog__emoji chatlog__emoji--small" alt="👍🏻" src="files/1f44d-1f3fb-346B9.svg" loading="lazy">
                                <span class="chatlog__reaction-count">1</span>
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            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                        <div class="chatlog__reference">
                                <img class="chatlog__reference-avatar" src="files/ac726b5857221d734c474b9280b0f2ae-EC09E.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="" title="vassvik#0798">mv</div>
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-content">
                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '1025831126746534028')">
impressive tech people are a dime a dozen. there's thousands of people who could program something like EmberGen-lite in a couple weeks. that's 1% of the work                                    </span>

                                </div>
                        </div>
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="JangaFX#1318" data-user-id="218509869282492416">Nick Seavert - JangaFX</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 11:07 AM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Vision, execution, marketing, usability, market penetration etc all take it to the next 99%</span>

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<div class="chatlog__message-group" style="">
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025831359001939998" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025831359001939998">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
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                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/ac726b5857221d734c474b9280b0f2ae-EC09E.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="vassvik#0798" data-user-id="132475694293843968">mv</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 11:07 AM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">There's always another 20%</span>

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                    <div class="chatlog__reactions">
                            <div class="chatlog__reaction" title="point_up">
                                <img class="chatlog__emoji chatlog__emoji--small" alt="☝️" src="files/261d-3A498.svg" loading="lazy">
                                <span class="chatlog__reaction-count">1</span>
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                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/89747c254631bcfd05c5c3e7141389aa-A1FB9.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 11:07 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">entrepreneurship is actually just learning that there's always another 99% :P</span>

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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025831469236637808" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025831469236637808">
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                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/500a026bbe575d128b125d0cf0651a26-22B85.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="JangaFX#1318" data-user-id="218509869282492416">Nick Seavert - JangaFX</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 11:08 AM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Unfortunately <img loading="lazy" class="chatlog__emoji " alt="😉" title="wink" src="files/twemoji_1f609.svg"></span>

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    </div>
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025831550354473071" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025831550354473071">
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            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 11:08 AM">11:08</div>
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            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I'm sad that I don't have enough lifetimes to build every tool I want to</span>

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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025831583527219271" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025831583527219271">
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            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 11:08 AM">11:08</div>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I have a trillion ideas</span>

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                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(22, 235, 183)" title="philliptrudeau#8865" data-user-id="335466817910996992">philliptrudeau</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 11:08 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Most programmers, myself included, have spent months or years building out an interesting <em>codebase</em> without directing it towards a product, and didn't develop that skill -- even just on the technical level!</span>

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            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="JangaFX#1318" data-user-id="218509869282492416">Nick Seavert - JangaFX</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 11:04 AM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">This is a bit random too, if your reasoning for not starting something is because "someone else is already doing it", that's your cue to actually go do it.</span>

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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025830718741434450" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025830718741434450">
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                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 11:05 AM">11:05</div>
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            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">There were atleast 10 other fluid sim packages on the market when EmberGen was released, and we did it better than all of them combined.</span>

                            <span class="chatlog__edited-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 11:05 AM">(edited)</span>
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            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(22, 235, 183)" title="philliptrudeau#8865" data-user-id="335466817910996992">philliptrudeau</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 11:05 AM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Most of the time, the people already doing it are actually doing a pretty crappy job at it!</span>

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                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(22, 235, 183)" title="philliptrudeau#8865" data-user-id="335466817910996992">philliptrudeau</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 11:06 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">This applies to games as well. If you bring your own personal taste to the art, there will actually be a lot of room for you in the market.</span>

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            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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                                <img class="chatlog__reference-avatar" src="files/c72723180bf059e8dbc35e6eaf9e0fa1-1FB1F.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="azmr#4870">Andrew (azmr)</div>
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-content">
                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '1025831267389935676')">
yeah, if you're involved in both the tech &amp; business side you need to be constantly asking "is this <em>actually</em> going to be helpful for users/customers?" when developing features - it's very easy to just rathole on "interesting problems"                                    </span>

                                        <span class="chatlog__reference-edited-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 11:07 AM">(edited)</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="vassvik#0798" data-user-id="132475694293843968">mv</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 11:09 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Every time Nick says "<em>it would be nice to have....</em>" a kitten dies</span>

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            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="JangaFX#1318" data-user-id="218509869282492416">Nick Seavert - JangaFX</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 11:10 AM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">"It would be nice to have EmberGen" thank me later <img loading="lazy" class="chatlog__emoji " alt="😄" title="smile" src="files/twemoji_1f604.svg"></span>

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            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="vassvik#0798" data-user-id="132475694293843968">mv</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 11:10 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">you were right once, geez</span>

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                                <img class="chatlog__emoji chatlog__emoji--small" alt="😂" src="files/1f602-20224.svg" loading="lazy">
                                <span class="chatlog__reaction-count">1</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 11:10 AM">11:10</div>
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            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve"><img loading="lazy" class="chatlog__emoji chatlog__emoji--large" alt="hehehe" title="hehehe" src="https://cdn.discordapp.com/emojis/833758822727155813.gif"></span>

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                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="JangaFX#1318" data-user-id="218509869282492416">Nick Seavert - JangaFX</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 11:11 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">One thing that helps when starting a business with this sort of thing is being the end user of a particular product or solving one of <em>your</em> pains. From there you can have a fuckload of passion for it.</span>

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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025832424027983942" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025832424027983942">
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                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 11:11 AM">11:11</div>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I have an absolutely undying need to beat everyone in our market. I wake up and think about it and go to sleep thinking about it.</span>

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                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="JangaFX#1318" data-user-id="218509869282492416">Nick Seavert - JangaFX</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 11:12 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">passion is often where businesses go to die, so tread lightly though</span>

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                                <img class="chatlog__reference-avatar" src="files/e5e2a49a0e3cc3c43b4b79168dcb4da1-B0325.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="Allen4th#9584">Allen4th</div>
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-content">
                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '1025824683892949115')">
My journey of entrepreneurship with 4coder was mostly accidental. Not that I didn't want to do an independent business - I did - but I never thought hard about how to do that. 4coder was a project that came out of my interests as a programmer, and it found enough of an audience that it sort of became a side business. I was also at a point in life where extra income was very helpful (I was attending college and paying rent) so I had some incentive to actually convert my little side project into a business.

I'll throw in a topic segue here too. As someone who has "experienced" running a business, but doesn't feel particularly skilled at that side of things, I see this as a great opportunity to learn from ya'll more successful entrepreneurs. So my first quest is, what even <em>is</em> entrepreneurship? Second question, what route do you take to get good at it? Is this something you can practice?                                    </span>

                                        <span class="chatlog__reference-edited-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 10:41 AM">(edited)</span>
                                </div>
                        </div>
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(155, 89, 182)" title="abnercoimbre#4546" data-user-id="754449440483311728">Abner Coimbre</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 11:06 AM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">There are traditional practices that can make you a better entrepreneur, and I can touch on those in a minute. However, we should acknowledge the <em>current environment</em>. The modern pattern is:

(1) Software shop runs out of money, dies.
(2) Software shop gets acquired. 
(3) Software shop raises outside funding, owner is no longer under full control.

This is the trend that <em>dominates</em> the tech industry, or am I wrong? In general, it is <em>punishing</em> to be independent and/or bootstrapped, but somehow this is what we want (at least that's true for me.)</span>

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                                <img class="chatlog__emoji chatlog__emoji--small" alt="💯" src="files/1f4af-2188D.svg" loading="lazy">
                                <span class="chatlog__reaction-count">2</span>
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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="vassvik#0798" data-user-id="132475694293843968">mv</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 11:11 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">(4) Friction between owners, everything implodes</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="vassvik#0798" data-user-id="132475694293843968">mv</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 11:13 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">(5) Friction between owners, everything explodes

Trust me, there's a difference <img loading="lazy" class="chatlog__emoji " alt="hehehe" title="hehehe" src="https://cdn.discordapp.com/emojis/833758822727155813.gif"></span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="JangaFX#1318" data-user-id="218509869282492416">Nick Seavert - JangaFX</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 11:14 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Luckily morten and I haven't gotten into many bouts. He trusts me to run the business and guide us and only speaks up if he <em>really</em> thinks i'm doing something wrong and I listen. And likewise I trust him fully to make the right tech decisions even if I don't understand it fully.</span>

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                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="azmr#4870" data-user-id="240986595749134336">Andrew (azmr)</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 11:18 AM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">being a solo founder is definitely a mixed blessing/curse... you have total control, but you don't have anyone to counteract your weak areas, and it can be demotivating not having anyone to talk to who has the same investment in what you're working on</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(22, 235, 183)" title="philliptrudeau#8865" data-user-id="335466817910996992">philliptrudeau</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 11:20 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Being a duo founder is the opposite tradeoff - you don't have total control, instead you feed positively off each other's energy - <em>but</em> it can demotivate your partner if you are against something they are invested in</span>

                            <span class="chatlog__edited-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 01:36 PM">(edited)</span>
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                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(155, 89, 182)" title="abnercoimbre#4546">Abner Coimbre</div>
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-content">
                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '1025831081859109015')">
There are traditional practices that can make you a better entrepreneur, and I can touch on those in a minute. However, we should acknowledge the <em>current environment</em>. The modern pattern is:

(1) Software shop runs out of money, dies.
(2) Software shop gets acquired. 
(3) Software shop raises outside funding, owner is no longer under full control.

This is the trend that <em>dominates</em> the tech industry, or am I wrong? In general, it is <em>punishing</em> to be independent and/or bootstrapped, but somehow this is what we want (at least that's true for me.)                                    </span>

                                </div>
                        </div>
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="Allen4th#9584" data-user-id="273134589000810496">Allen4th</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 11:12 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">This sounds like that overlap between the Handmade Ethos and Entreprenuership to me. Is this ideal of being independent, bootstrapped, sustainable, etc. <em>the</em> handmade ethos of entreprenuership?</span>

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                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="azmr#4870" data-user-id="240986595749134336">Andrew (azmr)</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 11:09 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">re: filling out the map of business concepts
we've mentioned 1 or 2, but there are a bunch of conceptual tools/frameworks for startups, many of which I think are from silicon valley... it might be interesting to consider which of these we think are actually useful and which are just fluff</span>

                    </div>




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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="azmr#4870" data-user-id="240986595749134336">Andrew (azmr)</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 11:13 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">one thing that I did early on in prep for meeting an advisor was fill out a "Lean Business Model Canvas". This definitely helped give me a better overview of the different components of the business</span>

                            <span class="chatlog__edited-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 11:14 AM">(edited)</span>
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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="Zeanith#5921" data-user-id="90567213731303424">Zeanith</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 11:13 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">This is counterintuitive for me, isnt technical prowess the majority of the value proposition? As in the case of Embergen, their iteration speed is a technical achievement that bests their competitors. I dont see how this can be 1% of the work as a whole. Being 1% of the work assumes it should only take 1% of your focus, or am I misinterpreting the statement?</span>

                            <span class="chatlog__edited-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 11:14 AM">(edited)</span>
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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="vassvik#0798" data-user-id="132475694293843968">mv</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 11:14 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve"><div class="chatlog__markdown-quote"><div class="chatlog__markdown-quote-border"></div><div class="chatlog__markdown-quote-content">This is counterintuitive for me, isnt technical prowess the majority of the value proposition? 
</div></div>
only on the surface really, but it's definitely part of the optics and first impressions</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="vassvik#0798" data-user-id="132475694293843968">mv</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 11:16 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">The technical prowess is definitely part of the core value proposition, and we wouldn't really be successful without it, but it's impact eventually drowns in proportional to "everything else" that turns out to be important to develop, market and maintain a tool</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="vassvik#0798" data-user-id="132475694293843968">mv</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 11:16 AM</span>
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                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">EmberGen is (currently) pretty damn slow tbh. Beware of tech debt and feature creep, as they say</span>

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                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 11:16 AM">11:16</div>
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                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">xD</span>

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                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="Zeanith#5921">Zeanith</div>
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                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '1025832874865328138')">
This is counterintuitive for me, isnt technical prowess the majority of the value proposition? As in the case of Embergen, their iteration speed is a technical achievement that bests their competitors. I dont see how this can be 1% of the work as a whole. Being 1% of the work assumes it should only take 1% of your focus, or am I misinterpreting the statement?                                    </span>

                                        <span class="chatlog__reference-edited-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 11:14 AM">(edited)</span>
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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(22, 235, 183)" title="philliptrudeau#8865" data-user-id="335466817910996992">philliptrudeau</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 11:15 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I think maybe the idea is that you <em>apply</em> handmade programming as an ethos as a part of the effort to produce the user experience. It's the same in a game -- the handmade programming is not the value-add <em>per se</em>, it's that it was an extremely effective way to effect that value</span>

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                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="Zeanith#5921">Zeanith</div>
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                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '1025832874865328138')">
This is counterintuitive for me, isnt technical prowess the majority of the value proposition? As in the case of Embergen, their iteration speed is a technical achievement that bests their competitors. I dont see how this can be 1% of the work as a whole. Being 1% of the work assumes it should only take 1% of your focus, or am I misinterpreting the statement?                                    </span>

                                        <span class="chatlog__reference-edited-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 11:14 AM">(edited)</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="JangaFX#1318" data-user-id="218509869282492416">Nick Seavert - JangaFX</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 11:16 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">In the case of EmberGen, it's only a matter of time before others eventually reach our level technically, so we have to out-chess them in otherways.</span>

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                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="" title="vassvik#0798">mv</div>
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The technical prowess is definitely part of the core value proposition, and we wouldn't really be successful without it, but it's impact eventually drowns in proportional to "everything else" that turns out to be important to develop, market and maintain a tool                                    </span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 11:17 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I would clarify here, even though I realize it seems pedantic, that no customer pays you for your prowess. They only pay you for things they value. Your prowess matters <em>to you</em> because, used properly, it can let you provide things they value.</span>

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                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(22, 235, 183)" title="philliptrudeau#8865">philliptrudeau</div>
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                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '1025831665920123030')">
Most programmers, myself included, have spent months or years building out an interesting <em>codebase</em> without directing it towards a product, and didn't develop that skill -- even just on the technical level!                                    </span>

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                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(155, 89, 182)" title="abnercoimbre#4546" data-user-id="754449440483311728">Abner Coimbre</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 11:15 AM</span>
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                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Directing it towards a product implies you have users to communicate with, and an <em>audience</em> that wants that product. You need to carve out a space for <em>learning to build an audience</em>. Send some emails, make some tweets, try some videos, write some blog posts. Send them to Discords, Hacker News, etc.</span>

                            <span class="chatlog__edited-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 11:15 AM">(edited)</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 11:16 AM">11:16</div>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">There is a skill to marketing, and you can learn it by a combination of <em>behavioral economic</em> books and most importantly trial and error.</span>

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                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 11:16 AM">11:16</div>
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                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Programmers fear the social ridicule from failed attempts at marketing, but learning to live with that fear is key to succeeding as an entrepreneur.</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="azmr#4870" data-user-id="240986595749134336">Andrew (azmr)</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 11:21 AM</span>
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                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">very true... and along with potential social stigma, the results of marketing are far less concrete, repeatable or immediate than with the types of problems programmers are used to dealing with</span>

                            <span class="chatlog__edited-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 11:21 AM">(edited)</span>
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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(22, 235, 183)" title="philliptrudeau#8865" data-user-id="335466817910996992">philliptrudeau</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 11:16 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Programmers brag sometimes about how scientific they are, until they're faced with the prospect of marketing their product, and then they start playing darts :)</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(22, 235, 183)" title="philliptrudeau#8865" data-user-id="335466817910996992">philliptrudeau</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 11:17 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Actually, they don't even play darts, they just throw one dart and it bounces off the wall 5 feet away</span>

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                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="" title="vassvik#0798">mv</div>
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                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '1025833558377508877')">
The technical prowess is definitely part of the core value proposition, and we wouldn't really be successful without it, but it's impact eventually drowns in proportional to "everything else" that turns out to be important to develop, market and maintain a tool                                    </span>

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                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="Allen4th#9584" data-user-id="273134589000810496">Allen4th</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 11:17 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I am hearing that good tech is a necessary - but not sufficient ingredient to an independent bootstrapped business. So what is this "everything else"?</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 11:18 AM</span>
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                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">good tech is really not necessary :P</span>

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                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 11:18 AM">11:18</div>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">a friend of mine was the founding CTO of uber, and their tech was terrible</span>

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                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '1025833936368185344')">
I am hearing that good tech is a necessary - but not sufficient ingredient to an independent bootstrapped business. So what is this "everything else"?                                    </span>

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                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="vassvik#0798" data-user-id="132475694293843968">mv</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 11:18 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">UI, UX, marketing, scaling, and a bunch more xD</span>

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                                <img class="chatlog__reference-avatar" src="files/e5e2a49a0e3cc3c43b4b79168dcb4da1-B0325.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="Allen4th#9584">Allen4th</div>
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                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '1025833936368185344')">
I am hearing that good tech is a necessary - but not sufficient ingredient to an independent bootstrapped business. So what is this "everything else"?                                    </span>

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                        </div>
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="JangaFX#1318" data-user-id="218509869282492416">Nick Seavert - JangaFX</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 11:19 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Above all, the never ending push and desire to get it done. JangaFX has been unbelievably difficult for me to continually exectue on. Many, many mistakes. Much stress. etc</span>

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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025834486027522128" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025834486027522128">
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                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 11:20 AM">11:20</div>
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            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I'm sure morten &amp; the team have similar feelings, just in a different area of the business</span>

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                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="" title="JangaFX#1318">Nick Seavert - JangaFX</div>
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                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '1025833618951635014')">
In the case of EmberGen, it's only a matter of time before others eventually reach our level technically, so we have to out-chess them in otherways.                                    </span>

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                        </div>
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="Zeanith#5921" data-user-id="90567213731303424">Zeanith</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 11:20 AM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">What strategies in particular were you able to use to out-chess the competition? What innovation was employed on the marketing/execution side? I'd love to know a small example if you can divulge such info. An example of a key mistake would be interesting too.</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="JangaFX#1318" data-user-id="218509869282492416">Nick Seavert - JangaFX</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 11:20 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Usability. They're archaic. Dog-shit UI</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="vassvik#0798" data-user-id="132475694293843968">mv</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 11:20 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">What's the opposite of innovation? Stagnation?</span>

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                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 11:21 AM">11:21</div>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Big dog tools stagnate</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="Zeanith#5921" data-user-id="90567213731303424">Zeanith</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 11:21 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Regression right? Getting worse over time.</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 11:22 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">bloating is also involved somehow, even though conceptually it doesn't seem required</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="vassvik#0798" data-user-id="132475694293843968">mv</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 11:22 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">The bigger the bite the longer it takes to chew, so to speak. Hard to innovate when you're always busy keeping the current thing alive</span>

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                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="Allen4th#9584">Allen4th</div>
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                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '1025833936368185344')">
I am hearing that good tech is a necessary - but not sufficient ingredient to an independent bootstrapped business. So what is this "everything else"?                                    </span>

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                        </div>
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(22, 235, 183)" title="philliptrudeau#8865" data-user-id="335466817910996992">philliptrudeau</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 11:23 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">It sounds fluffy and copout-y, but when you have the time and the motivation to focus purely on the business (which is sometimes a privilege!) then you sort of just start analyzing everything that you need to Get Done, and I think it's going to vary a lot per business when we're talking smaller individual-level scale. You have a limited bandwidth anyway, so you start entering the "optimization mode" like with code where you find the 80% easy-wins and optimize them down to marginal, rinse and repeat</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="Allen4th#9584" data-user-id="273134589000810496">Allen4th</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 11:26 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I think you're assuming that I (and the audience) <em>do</em> know what "needs to Get Done". I spent 5 years trying to advance 4coder by doing what I thought needed to get done, and while I was successful in my specific goals, the broader goal of making 4coder more popular only ever happened when I made it cheaper.

I'm trying to get ya'll to take seriously the possibility that it's not obvious to everyone what's worth paying attention to.</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(22, 235, 183)" title="philliptrudeau#8865" data-user-id="335466817910996992">philliptrudeau</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 11:39 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">That's fair. It's hard for me to say! By committing myself to finishing a game, my mind quickly focused on the immediate tasks at hand -- "today I need to get Steam integration in the codebase"; "today I need to check in with translators"; "today I need to call the marketing liaison about sketching out a press release".

In a business, the overarching goals are obviously just to build a product that users value and then to make them aware that it exists, but implicit in those are two parallel-running scientific processes of refining one's strategy. It's hard for me to know what that looks like ahead of time, which might be partly why it's still nebulous to me. The main advice I've seen has been general best-practices for an overarching field/discipline (e.g. best practices for small indie games) -- and acting heterodox in those areas can sometimes be a good risk/reward in itself.</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="azmr#4870" data-user-id="240986595749134336">Andrew (azmr)</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 11:44 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">What needs to get done depends to some degree on what stage your business/product is at.
<a class="inserted-after" href="https://www.amazon.com/Startup-Owners-Manual-Step-Step/dp/0984999302" target="_blank">The Startup Owners Manual</a> splits the key initial processes into <strong>Customer Discovery</strong> and <strong>Customer Validation</strong> (photos show pipelines for each)</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="JangaFX#1318" data-user-id="218509869282492416">Nick Seavert - JangaFX</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 11:48 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">For better or for worse, I dont' really overthink things with diagrams like this haha</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="JangaFX#1318" data-user-id="218509869282492416">Nick Seavert - JangaFX</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 11:23 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">For EmberGen 1.0 coming up, we're really hammering down on usability or ease of use. I want it to be so easy to get into EmberGen and get the assets you need that there's almost no thought needed on how to do that. Not only that but building a workflow that's very specific to games in a way that makes sense to our target market. Most game studio use film tools and bend them to fit their pipeline. With us, they don't have to because we built it for them in the first place</span>

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                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588">demetrispanos</div>
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                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '1025835030725005396')">
bloating is also involved somehow, even though conceptually it doesn't seem required                                    </span>

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                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="vassvik#0798" data-user-id="132475694293843968">mv</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 11:23 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I'm of the opinion that bloat is almost always inevitable, in terms of  bloat  tech debt, feature creep, or worse, and it's incredibly hard to fight the urge to scale in complexity</span>

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                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 11:23 AM">11:23</div>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Hard to succeed without those creeping in tho</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(22, 235, 183)" title="philliptrudeau#8865" data-user-id="335466817910996992">philliptrudeau</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 11:24 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">"Paying down your technical debt regularly is part of sustaining yourself" -- paraphrasing Jon Blow</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="vassvik#0798" data-user-id="132475694293843968">mv</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 11:24 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Shortcuts must eventually be made one way or another. Can you find the right balance?</span>

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                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="Zeanith#5921">Zeanith</div>
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What strategies in particular were you able to use to out-chess the competition? What innovation was employed on the marketing/execution side? I'd love to know a small example if you can divulge such info. An example of a key mistake would be interesting too.                                    </span>

                                </div>
                        </div>
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="JangaFX#1318" data-user-id="218509869282492416">Nick Seavert - JangaFX</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 11:25 AM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I think a key mistake was us prioritizing XYZ feature when we knew it would incur significant technical debt. We also had the general idea of what our tool should be but not having it super concrete has caused us to re-write it. But with this being our first successful commercial product, we have the freedom and flexibility to undo our mistakes</span>

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                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/ac726b5857221d734c474b9280b0f2ae-EC09E.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="vassvik#0798" data-user-id="132475694293843968">mv</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 11:26 AM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">For now</span>

                    </div>




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                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/89747c254631bcfd05c5c3e7141389aa-A1FB9.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 11:26 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve"><div class="chatlog__markdown-quote"><div class="chatlog__markdown-quote-border"></div><div class="chatlog__markdown-quote-content">not having it super concrete
</div></div>this is extremely important / dangerous, but also powerful ... it's often important to follow your intuition that there's an opportunity somewhere, but it's also important not to let that ambiguity linger very long (because it makes you waste time and psychic energy entertaining uncertainty)</span>

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                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/ac726b5857221d734c474b9280b0f2ae-EC09E.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="vassvik#0798" data-user-id="132475694293843968">mv</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 11:28 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Something something outside the box</span>

                    </div>




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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025835704078577745" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025835704078577745">
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            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                        <div class="chatlog__reference">
                                <img class="chatlog__reference-avatar" src="files/7d1e6c8c57dd77a1fa0f2d843fd66cc5-4208E.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(155, 89, 182)" title="abnercoimbre#4546">Abner Coimbre</div>
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-content">
                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '1025833537942851675')">
Programmers fear the social ridicule from failed attempts at marketing, but learning to live with that fear is key to succeeding as an entrepreneur.                                    </span>

                                </div>
                        </div>
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(155, 89, 182)" title="abnercoimbre#4546" data-user-id="754449440483311728">Abner Coimbre</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 11:24 AM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">How am I surviving with Handmade Seattle when I don't have any company sponsors? When I don't have a YouTube channel? First I acknowledge the power of the Handmade brand, but that's never enough to pay rent long-term.  The answer is lots of pings and emails after following these steps:

(1) Subscribe to feeds that talk about anything related to your product. You're already a programmer, so build up your own custom feed. Imagine receiving email notifications from special keywords from Twitter and Hacker News.

(2) Manually hunt for blog posts and social media in addition to the automatic feed from #1.

(3) Start connecting with people. "Oh hey, I understand <em>exactly</em> what you're going through. That's why I'm building X, Y, and Z. Wanna check it out sometime?"

With #3 you start building <em>professional relationships</em> (<em>gasp</em> all on your own! <img loading="lazy" class="chatlog__emoji " alt="😄" title="smile" src="files/twemoji_1f604.svg"> )</span>

                            <span class="chatlog__edited-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 11:25 AM">(edited)</span>
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            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(22, 235, 183)" title="philliptrudeau#8865" data-user-id="335466817910996992">philliptrudeau</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 11:26 AM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Loris Cro recently gave me the revelation that the purpose of Twitter is literally just for companies to track their brand's performance!</span>

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                    <div class="chatlog__reactions">
                            <div class="chatlog__reaction" title="open_mouth">
                                <img class="chatlog__emoji chatlog__emoji--small" alt="😮" src="files/1f62e-B0B43.svg" loading="lazy">
                                <span class="chatlog__reaction-count">2</span>
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            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(155, 89, 182)" title="abnercoimbre#4546" data-user-id="754449440483311728">Abner Coimbre</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 11:26 AM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I know you might immediately feel "icky" because of so many SEO experts and small CEOs out there doing the same thing. Like cold-calling or cold-emailing people.</span>

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            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(155, 89, 182)" title="abnercoimbre#4546" data-user-id="754449440483311728">Abner Coimbre</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 11:26 AM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">But the point isn't to sell them on something <em>right then and there</em>.</span>

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            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(155, 89, 182)" title="abnercoimbre#4546" data-user-id="754449440483311728">Abner Coimbre</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 11:26 AM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">The point is build relationships. Genuine professional friendships because they respect what you're working on, and hopefully you respect and learn about their stuff too.</span>

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                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/7d1e6c8c57dd77a1fa0f2d843fd66cc5-4208E.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(155, 89, 182)" title="abnercoimbre#4546" data-user-id="754449440483311728">Abner Coimbre</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 11:27 AM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Over the years this builds into a <em>loose but powerful network that cares about you</em>.</span>

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            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                        <div class="chatlog__reference">
                                <img class="chatlog__reference-avatar" src="files/7d1e6c8c57dd77a1fa0f2d843fd66cc5-4208E.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(155, 89, 182)" title="abnercoimbre#4546">Abner Coimbre</div>
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-content">
                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '1025836034451312670')">
I know you might immediately feel "icky" because of so many SEO experts and small CEOs out there doing the same thing. Like cold-calling or cold-emailing people.                                    </span>

                                </div>
                        </div>
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="vassvik#0798" data-user-id="132475694293843968">mv</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 11:27 AM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Unlike me, who hangs up if it's an unknown number (or ignores it if I know who it is, more often than not). There's a reason Nick is the CEO xD</span>

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            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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                                <img class="chatlog__reference-avatar" src="files/c72723180bf059e8dbc35e6eaf9e0fa1-1FB1F.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="azmr#4870">Andrew (azmr)</div>
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-content">
                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '1025834879776198686')">
very true... and along with potential social stigma, the results of marketing are far less concrete, repeatable or immediate than with the types of problems programmers are used to dealing with                                    </span>

                                        <span class="chatlog__reference-edited-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 11:21 AM">(edited)</span>
                                </div>
                        </div>
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(155, 89, 182)" title="abnercoimbre#4546" data-user-id="754449440483311728">Abner Coimbre</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 11:29 AM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">That's right. I think this is a good time for <span class="chatlog__markdown-mention" title="demetrispanos#5588">@demetrispanos</span>'s poker analogy when it comes to social skills.</span>

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            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="JangaFX#1318" data-user-id="218509869282492416">Nick Seavert - JangaFX</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 11:28 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Linkedin makes us a lot of money with reaching out and building our network</span>

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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025836945403826196" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025836945403826196">
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            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                        <div class="chatlog__reference">
                                <img class="chatlog__reference-avatar" src="files/7d1e6c8c57dd77a1fa0f2d843fd66cc5-4208E.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(155, 89, 182)" title="abnercoimbre#4546">Abner Coimbre</div>
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-content">
                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '1025836312999243816')">
Over the years this builds into a <em>loose but powerful network that cares about you</em>.                                    </span>

                                </div>
                        </div>
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="JangaFX#1318" data-user-id="218509869282492416">Nick Seavert - JangaFX</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 11:29 AM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Unfortunately my network is pretty loose these days</span>

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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025837013833875516" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025837013833875516">
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            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 11:30 AM">11:30</div>
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            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I've probably talked to thousands of people over the past few years</span>

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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025837015268343808" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025837015268343808">
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            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(155, 89, 182)" title="abnercoimbre#4546" data-user-id="754449440483311728">Abner Coimbre</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 11:30 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Oh?</span>

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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025837087422951534" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025837087422951534">
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                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 11:30 AM">11:30</div>
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            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Hah, yes, relatable.</span>

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            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="vassvik#0798" data-user-id="132475694293843968">mv</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 11:30 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">At some point people reach out to you</span>

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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025837217739968622" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025837217739968622">
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                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/500a026bbe575d128b125d0cf0651a26-22B85.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="JangaFX#1318" data-user-id="218509869282492416">Nick Seavert - JangaFX</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 11:30 AM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">It becomes problematic "Hey, we talked at XYZ, and we discussed this and this, whats the status?" Oh you're person #7,487</span>

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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025837404462002257" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025837404462002257">
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            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 11:31 AM">11:31</div>
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            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Someone make a rolodex software with notes and grabs convos from every platform out there</span>

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                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(155, 89, 182)" title="abnercoimbre#4546" data-user-id="754449440483311728">Abner Coimbre</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 11:31 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve"><span class="chatlog__markdown-mention" title="JangaFX#1318">@Nick Seavert - JangaFX</span> Let me just say that that's as good problem to have.</span>

                            <span class="chatlog__edited-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 11:32 AM">(edited)</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 11:31 AM">11:31</div>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Most programmers in this community are very very far away from this problem that they <em>should have</em></span>

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                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/ac726b5857221d734c474b9280b0f2ae-EC09E.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="vassvik#0798" data-user-id="132475694293843968">mv</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 11:32 AM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Something about being too successful getting to the point where things are less organic and down to earth</span>

                            <span class="chatlog__edited-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 11:32 AM">(edited)</span>
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            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                        <div class="chatlog__reference">
                                <img class="chatlog__reference-avatar" src="files/500a026bbe575d128b125d0cf0651a26-22B85.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="" title="JangaFX#1318">Nick Seavert - JangaFX</div>
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-content">
                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '1025837404462002257')">
Someone make a rolodex software with notes and grabs convos from every platform out there                                    </span>

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                        </div>
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="JangaFX#1318" data-user-id="218509869282492416">Nick Seavert - JangaFX</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 11:32 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Big money idea, who's going to take it?</span>

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            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(155, 89, 182)" title="abnercoimbre#4546" data-user-id="754449440483311728">Abner Coimbre</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 11:32 AM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">You should, of course, figure out the limits at which you can keep your network alive and healthy.</span>

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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025837965425004615" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025837965425004615">
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                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 11:33 AM">11:33</div>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">But you need to have a network in the first place, and that's the skill I hope people start to build right away <em>in addition</em> to working on their product.</span>

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                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="vassvik#0798" data-user-id="132475694293843968">mv</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 11:34 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">We probably should have talked about networking from the start. It's quite important</span>

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                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 11:34 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">yes, and this relates to the poker analogy actually</span>

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            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(155, 89, 182)" title="abnercoimbre#4546" data-user-id="754449440483311728">Abner Coimbre</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 11:34 AM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">It's <em>critical</em>. Without it, Handmade Seattle would be dead. Terminal Click wouldn't have enough fans to tell me to keep going</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="JangaFX#1318" data-user-id="218509869282492416">Nick Seavert - JangaFX</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 11:34 AM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I've built my entire network from scratch, as we all do. When I started JangaFX I knew absolutely no one in my target market. I didn't even know a fellow VFX Artist</span>

                            <span class="chatlog__edited-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 11:35 AM">(edited)</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 11:34 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">most of my business has come, one way or another, downstream of some kind of networking</span>

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                                <img class="chatlog__emoji chatlog__emoji--small" alt="☝️" src="files/261d-3A498.svg" loading="lazy">
                                <span class="chatlog__reaction-count">1</span>
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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025838262700490772" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025838262700490772">
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                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 11:35 AM">11:35</div>
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            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">but at the same time probably 3/4 meetings or introductions I do go nowhere</span>

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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025838334083342337" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025838334083342337">
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                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 11:35 AM">11:35</div>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">so it's very easy to misunderstand what is happening when you first start out</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 11:36 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">this is an article from a friend of mine who, amusingly, wrote this as a consequence of me meeting him randomly through a HN post <a href="https://www.codusoperandi.com/posts/increasing-your-luck-surface-area" target="_blank">https://www.codusoperandi.com/posts/increasing-your-luck-surface-area</a></span>

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                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588">demetrispanos</div>
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-content">
                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '1025838699285577850')">
this is an article from a friend of mine who, amusingly, wrote this as a consequence of me meeting him randomly through a HN post <a href="https://www.codusoperandi.com/posts/increasing-your-luck-surface-area" target="_blank">https://www.codusoperandi.com/posts/increasing-your-luck-surface-area</a>                                    </span>

                                </div>
                        </div>
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="JangaFX#1318" data-user-id="218509869282492416">Nick Seavert - JangaFX</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 11:37 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Seems to follow my philosophy that the more quarters you put into the golden gumball machine, the more golden gumballs you have a chance to accrue</span>

                            <span class="chatlog__edited-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 11:37 AM">(edited)</span>
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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 11:38 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">yes, or to quote the great Linus Pauling, "the best way to have a good idea is to have many ideas"</span>

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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025839098407178341" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025839098407178341">
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                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 11:38 AM">11:38</div>
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            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">(this applies in many things in life, not just ideas)</span>

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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025838612388007960" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025838612388007960">
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                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(155, 89, 182)" title="abnercoimbre#4546" data-user-id="754449440483311728">Abner Coimbre</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 11:36 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">That makes sense. Here are some numbers from Handmade Seattle 2021: I believe I spoke to 80 to 85 speakers because most of them would say no.</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(155, 89, 182)" title="abnercoimbre#4546" data-user-id="754449440483311728">Abner Coimbre</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 11:37 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">These are genuine and heartfelt meetings that I have with people. The conference was still a success, but notice the churn rate. It was high (for an up-and-coming conference, at least.) This is normal.</span>

                            <span class="chatlog__edited-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 11:38 AM">(edited)</span>
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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(155, 89, 182)" title="abnercoimbre#4546" data-user-id="754449440483311728">Abner Coimbre</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 11:41 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Of course COVID was a factor for 2021. In either case I notice each year it gets easier. For 2022 I'm actually having an issue with sorting out proposals since I got a lot. My guess is that the <em>loose network</em> finally started working on my behalf as soon as I announced going full-time on this.</span>

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                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 11:42 AM">11:42</div>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">So that's an interesting idea: can you invest in your network over time, and then tell your network about some <em>big business move</em> that gets you some amazing return?</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="Zeanith#5921" data-user-id="90567213731303424">Zeanith</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 11:43 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">You mentioned the conference got a bump when banning language talks, how big was this bump roughly? Personally I like when companies are principled to their core purpose and assume this is what resonated in the network you built.</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(155, 89, 182)" title="abnercoimbre#4546" data-user-id="754449440483311728">Abner Coimbre</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 11:47 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I don't want to give exact numbers, but it was the <em>best month</em> in terms of sudden revenue in Handmade Seattle history. Ticket sales and donations poured in in a way that I never expected. For anyone lost, I did a ban on language talks for this year, expecting I would piss off a lot of people and lose customers: <a href="https://vimeo.com/737044714" target="_blank">https://vimeo.com/737044714</a></span>

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                                            <div class="chatlog__embed-author-container">

                                                        <a class="chatlog__embed-author-link" href="https://vimeo.com/handmadeseattle">
                                                            <div class="chatlog__embed-author">Handmade Seattle</div>
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                                            <div class="chatlog__embed-title">
                                                    <a class="chatlog__embed-title-link" href="https://vimeo.com/737044714">
                                                        <div class="chatlog__markdown chatlog__markdown-preserve">Handmade Dev Show - Languages Are Banned</div>
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                                            <div class="chatlog__embed-description">
                                                <div class="chatlog__markdown chatlog__markdown-preserve">Handmade Seattle 2022 will not allow presentations designed to promote programming languages.</div>
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                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/0be34eb37a223ff9b4c6214888310d87-1F0CE.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="Zeanith#5921" data-user-id="90567213731303424">Zeanith</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 11:48 AM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">oh I meant more of a percentage, not exact values, but understandable if you dont want to divulge that.</span>

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                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(155, 89, 182)" title="abnercoimbre#4546" data-user-id="754449440483311728">Abner Coimbre</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 11:48 AM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">And I agree! Being principled to the core purpose of the conference did resonate with my network.</span>

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                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(22, 235, 183)" title="philliptrudeau#8865" data-user-id="335466817910996992">philliptrudeau</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 11:49 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">It's possible that the correlation with more sales is a result of the attention the conference got <em>in general</em>, independent of the controversial decision!</span>

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                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/7d1e6c8c57dd77a1fa0f2d843fd66cc5-4208E.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(155, 89, 182)" title="abnercoimbre#4546" data-user-id="754449440483311728">Abner Coimbre</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 11:50 AM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Fair point!</span>

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                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(155, 89, 182)" title="abnercoimbre#4546" data-user-id="754449440483311728">Abner Coimbre</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 11:50 AM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve"><span class="chatlog__markdown-mention" title="philliptrudeau#8865">@philliptrudeau</span> And I also learned that some people were getting tired of systems programming conferences <em>oriented around</em> a single language. cppcon, pycon, RustConf, cppnorth, etc.</span>

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                    <div class="chatlog__reactions">
                            <div class="chatlog__reaction" title="exploding_head">
                                <img class="chatlog__emoji chatlog__emoji--small" alt="🤯" src="files/1f92f-F3952.svg" loading="lazy">
                                <span class="chatlog__reaction-count">1</span>
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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025842374993264771" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025842374993264771">
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                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 11:51 AM">11:51</div>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">So in a way I tapped into an undiscovered market</span>

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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025842474482159676" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025842474482159676">
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                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 11:51 AM">11:51</div>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">My legitimate conclusion is that's what resulted in all the sales / donations</span>

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                        <div class="chatlog__reference">
                                <img class="chatlog__reference-avatar" src="files/0be34eb37a223ff9b4c6214888310d87-1F0CE.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="Zeanith#5921">Zeanith</div>
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-content">
                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '1025841571561746463')">
oh I meant more of a percentage, not exact values, but understandable if you dont want to divulge that.                                    </span>

                                </div>
                        </div>
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(155, 89, 182)" title="abnercoimbre#4546" data-user-id="754449440483311728">Abner Coimbre</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 11:49 AM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">That's an interesting question. <span class="chatlog__markdown-mention" title="JangaFX#1318">@Nick Seavert - JangaFX</span> how comfortable are we supposed to be, as entrepreneurs, with sharing financials?</span>

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                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="JangaFX#1318" data-user-id="218509869282492416">Nick Seavert - JangaFX</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 11:49 AM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve"><a href="https://fourmilab.ch/etexts/www/barnum/moneygetting/moneygetting_chap20.html" target="_blank">https://fourmilab.ch/etexts/www/barnum/moneygetting/moneygetting_chap20.html</a></span>

                    </div>


                        <div class="chatlog__embed">
                                <div class="chatlog__embed-color-pill chatlog__embed-color-pill--default"></div>

                            <div class="chatlog__embed-content-container">
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                                    <div class="chatlog__embed-text">

                                            <div class="chatlog__embed-title">
                                                    <a class="chatlog__embed-title-link" href="https://fourmilab.ch/etexts/www/barnum/moneygetting/moneygetting_chap20.html">
                                                        <div class="chatlog__markdown chatlog__markdown-preserve">ART OF MONEY GETTING</div>
                                                    </a>
                                            </div>

                                            <div class="chatlog__embed-description">
                                                <div class="chatlog__markdown chatlog__markdown-preserve">ART OF MONEY GETTING</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-group">
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                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/500a026bbe575d128b125d0cf0651a26-22B85.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="JangaFX#1318" data-user-id="218509869282492416">Nick Seavert - JangaFX</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 11:49 AM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve"><span class="chatlog__markdown-pre chatlog__markdown-pre--inline">Dont blab</span>
<div class="chatlog__markdown-pre chatlog__markdown-pre--multiline nohighlight">Some men have a foolish habit of telling their business secrets. If they make money they like to tell their neighbors how it was done. Nothing is gained by this, and ofttimes much is lost. Say nothing about your profits, your hopes, your expectations, your intentions. And this should apply to letters as well as to conversation. Goethe makes Mephistophiles say: “Never write a letter nor destroy one.” Business men must write letters, but they should be careful what they put in them. If you are losing money, be specially cautious and not tell of it, or you will lose your reputation.</div></span>

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                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/500a026bbe575d128b125d0cf0651a26-22B85.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="JangaFX#1318" data-user-id="218509869282492416">Nick Seavert - JangaFX</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 11:50 AM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I don't tell exact numbers or things anymore. I told someone and they stabbed me in the back and it hurt a lot. Destroyed what I thought was a friendship</span>

                            <span class="chatlog__edited-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 11:50 AM">(edited)</span>
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                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/7d1e6c8c57dd77a1fa0f2d843fd66cc5-4208E.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(155, 89, 182)" title="abnercoimbre#4546" data-user-id="754449440483311728">Abner Coimbre</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 11:52 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">That was my gut instinct about these things. Thank you. And I'm sorry that happened to you.</span>

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                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="Zeanith#5921" data-user-id="90567213731303424">Zeanith</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 11:53 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve"><span class="chatlog__markdown-mention" title="JangaFX#1318">@Nick Seavert - JangaFX</span> sorry about your experience, the few people I do know in entrepreneurial endeavors all have some story of how a friendship was compromised due to their pursuit. Not for this to be a morbid tangent.</span>

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                        <div class="chatlog__reference">
                                <img class="chatlog__reference-avatar" src="files/500a026bbe575d128b125d0cf0651a26-22B85.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="" title="JangaFX#1318">Nick Seavert - JangaFX</div>
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-content">
                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '1025841955894206514')">
<a href="https://fourmilab.ch/etexts/www/barnum/moneygetting/moneygetting_chap20.html" target="_blank">https://fourmilab.ch/etexts/www/barnum/moneygetting/moneygetting_chap20.html</a>                                    </span>

                                </div>
                        </div>
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 11:52 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">actually the entire "Autodesk Book" is useful reading for aspiring entrepreneurs</span>

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                    <div class="chatlog__reactions">
                            <div class="chatlog__reaction" title="handmadeThumbsUp">
                                <img class="chatlog__emoji chatlog__emoji--small" alt="handmadeThumbsUp" src="files/857042369106804766-32647.png" loading="lazy">
                                <span class="chatlog__reaction-count">1</span>
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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 11:56 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve"><a href="https://www.fourmilab.ch/autofile/">https://www.fourmilab.ch/autofile/</a></span>

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                        <div class="chatlog__embed">
                                <div class="chatlog__embed-color-pill chatlog__embed-color-pill--default"></div>

                            <div class="chatlog__embed-content-container">
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                                    <div class="chatlog__embed-text">

                                            <div class="chatlog__embed-title">
                                                    <a class="chatlog__embed-title-link" href="https://www.fourmilab.ch/autofile/">
                                                        <div class="chatlog__markdown chatlog__markdown-preserve">The Autodesk File</div>
                                                    </a>
                                            </div>

                                            <div class="chatlog__embed-description">
                                                <div class="chatlog__markdown chatlog__markdown-preserve">The Autodesk File: A history of Autodesk and AutoCAD in documents</div>
                                            </div>

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                    <div class="chatlog__reactions">
                            <div class="chatlog__reaction" title="handmadeThumbsUp">
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                                <span class="chatlog__reaction-count">1</span>
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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025843881755017256" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025843881755017256">
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            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 11:57 AM">11:57</div>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">it describes the founding and early years of autodesk</span>

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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025843904035168276" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025843904035168276">
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            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 11:57 AM">11:57</div>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">(from the perspective of the founders)</span>

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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025842814728290455" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025842814728290455">
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                        <div class="chatlog__reference">
                                <img class="chatlog__reference-avatar" src="files/89747c254631bcfd05c5c3e7141389aa-A1FB9.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588">demetrispanos</div>
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-content">
                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '1025842749800456310')">
actually the entire "Autodesk Book" is useful reading for aspiring entrepreneurs                                    </span>

                                </div>
                        </div>
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="JangaFX#1318" data-user-id="218509869282492416">Nick Seavert - JangaFX</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 11:53 AM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I try to live by this one in particular</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(22, 235, 183)" title="philliptrudeau#8865" data-user-id="335466817910996992">philliptrudeau</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 11:53 AM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I think a lot of businesses take major efforts to measure all the aspects of the attention they're getting. "Are customers interested because we did something interesting, or were customers who were already interested get spurred on by coverage?" Et cetera.

For most Steam games, your audience "already exists", and the challenge is not to convince them that they should be interested, the challenge is just to make them aware that you exist.</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="azmr#4870" data-user-id="240986595749134336">Andrew (azmr)</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 11:53 AM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">One thing that gets emphasized is having a "minimal viable product" early to get feedback from potential users.
We've had discussions around MVPs on the servers before, and it seems like people here prefer the similar concept of a "vertical slice".

Either way, it's something that demonstrates what you think are the key selling points of your product...
This is easier with some things than others - if you have a high latency web tool like Airbnb, the MVP's 'processing' can be faked with the founders manually finding matches.

If you're making something that requires technical excellence to demonstrate its value, you don't really have this option, so an MVP has to involve a dramatic (temporary) cutting off scope.

I'm curious what the initial JangaFX demos looked like and what <span class="chatlog__markdown-mention" title="vassvik#0798">@mv</span> and <span class="chatlog__markdown-mention" title="JangaFX#1318">@Nick Seavert - JangaFX</span> focused on for them</span>

                            <span class="chatlog__edited-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 11:53 AM">(edited)</span>
                    </div>




                    <div class="chatlog__reactions">
                            <div class="chatlog__reaction" title="point_up_tone1">
                                <img class="chatlog__emoji chatlog__emoji--small" alt="☝🏻" src="files/261d-1f3fb-EBBA6.svg" loading="lazy">
                                <span class="chatlog__reaction-count">2</span>
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                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/89747c254631bcfd05c5c3e7141389aa-A1FB9.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 11:53 AM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">"<a class="inserted-after" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vertical_slice" target="_blank">vertical slice</a>" and <a class="inserted-after" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimum_viable_product" target="_blank">MVP</a> are quite different</span>

                    </div>




                    <div class="chatlog__reactions">
                            <div class="chatlog__reaction" title="thumbsup">
                                <img class="chatlog__emoji chatlog__emoji--small" alt="👍" src="files/1f44d-B3F5F.svg" loading="lazy">
                                <span class="chatlog__reaction-count">1</span>
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                    </div>
            </div>
        </div>
    </div>
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025842979128225932" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025842979128225932">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 11:53 AM">11:53</div>
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">MVP is the simplest thing someone would conceivably pay for</span>

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    </div>
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025843025022308443" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025843025022308443">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 11:53 AM">11:53</div>
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">it may only have one feature, but at some low price someone might pay for it</span>

                    </div>




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    </div>
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025843188369473596" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025843188369473596">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 11:54 AM">11:54</div>
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">"vertical slice" instead is meant to exercise <em>all</em> the features but in a very constrained way (e.g. one level in a game)</span>

                    </div>




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    </div>
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025843298620936202" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025843298620936202">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 11:55 AM">11:55</div>
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">so e.g. "the witness" MVP could be just a $1 iphone game with the tablet puzzles</span>

                    </div>




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<div class="chatlog__message-group" style="">
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025843347497164881" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025843347497164881">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/89747c254631bcfd05c5c3e7141389aa-A1FB9.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 11:55 AM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">and a vertical slice would be the full 3D experience with all systems working, but just one room</span>

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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025843331806277723" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025843331806277723">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
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                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/7d1e6c8c57dd77a1fa0f2d843fd66cc5-4208E.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(155, 89, 182)" title="abnercoimbre#4546" data-user-id="754449440483311728">Abner Coimbre</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 11:55 AM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Vertical slices are key to getting publisher funding in game studios.</span>

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<div class="chatlog__message-group">
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025843489981874176" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025843489981874176">
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                                <img class="chatlog__reference-avatar" src="files/c72723180bf059e8dbc35e6eaf9e0fa1-1FB1F.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="azmr#4870">Andrew (azmr)</div>
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-content">
                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '1025842835716579398')">
One thing that gets emphasized is having a "minimal viable product" early to get feedback from potential users.
We've had discussions around MVPs on the servers before, and it seems like people here prefer the similar concept of a "vertical slice".

Either way, it's something that demonstrates what you think are the key selling points of your product...
This is easier with some things than others - if you have a high latency web tool like Airbnb, the MVP's 'processing' can be faked with the founders manually finding matches.

If you're making something that requires technical excellence to demonstrate its value, you don't really have this option, so an MVP has to involve a dramatic (temporary) cutting off scope.

I'm curious what the initial JangaFX demos looked like and what <span class="chatlog__markdown-mention" title="vassvik#0798">@mv</span> and <span class="chatlog__markdown-mention" title="JangaFX#1318">@Nick Seavert - JangaFX</span> focused on for them                                    </span>

                                        <span class="chatlog__reference-edited-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 11:53 AM">(edited)</span>
                                </div>
                        </div>
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="JangaFX#1318" data-user-id="218509869282492416">Nick Seavert - JangaFX</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 11:55 AM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve"><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1WD3K_cCSM" target="_blank">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1WD3K_cCSM</a></span>

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                                                        <a class="chatlog__embed-author-link" href="https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtRjzr2QlxJcoQQ2c74dJpw">
                                                            <div class="chatlog__embed-author">JangaFX VFX Software &amp; Tutorials</div>
                                                        </a>
                                            </div>

                                            <div class="chatlog__embed-title">
                                                    <a class="chatlog__embed-title-link" href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1WD3K_cCSM">
                                                        <div class="chatlog__markdown chatlog__markdown-preserve">EmberGen Alpha - Launched!</div>
                                                    </a>
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                                            <iframe class="chatlog__embed-youtube" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/G1WD3K_cCSM" width="400" height="225"></iframe>
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                    <div class="chatlog__reactions">
                            <div class="chatlog__reaction" title="fire">
                                <img class="chatlog__emoji chatlog__emoji--small" alt="🔥" src="files/1f525-42B23.svg" loading="lazy">
                                <span class="chatlog__reaction-count">2</span>
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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025843731632504952" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025843731632504952">
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            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 11:56 AM">11:56</div>
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            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">vs</span>

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                    <div class="chatlog__attachment " onclick="">

                            <a href="files/unknown-D28A1.png" target="_blank">
                                <img class="chatlog__attachment-media" src="files/unknown-D28A1.png" alt="Image attachment" title="Image: unknown.png (1.1 MB)" loading="lazy">
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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025843873848762510" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025843873848762510">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/c72723180bf059e8dbc35e6eaf9e0fa1-1FB1F.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="azmr#4870" data-user-id="240986595749134336">Andrew (azmr)</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 11:57 AM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">how long into development was this and what features did you <em>exclude</em> in the process of getting there?</span>

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<div class="chatlog__message-group" style="">
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025844004555866173" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025844004555866173">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/500a026bbe575d128b125d0cf0651a26-22B85.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="JangaFX#1318" data-user-id="218509869282492416">Nick Seavert - JangaFX</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 11:57 AM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Camera imports, mesh imports, vdb export iirc. Fancy render features</span>

                            <span class="chatlog__edited-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 11:58 AM">(edited)</span>
                    </div>




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            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                        <div class="chatlog__reference">
                                <img class="chatlog__reference-avatar" src="files/500a026bbe575d128b125d0cf0651a26-22B85.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="" title="JangaFX#1318">Nick Seavert - JangaFX</div>
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-content">
                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '1025843489981874176')">
<a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1WD3K_cCSM" target="_blank">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1WD3K_cCSM</a>                                    </span>

                                </div>
                        </div>
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="vassvik#0798" data-user-id="132475694293843968">mv</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 11:57 AM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Isn't that what we called the beta? XD</span>

                    </div>




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<div class="chatlog__message-group">
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025844029348384768" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025844029348384768">
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                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/500a026bbe575d128b125d0cf0651a26-22B85.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="JangaFX#1318" data-user-id="218509869282492416">Nick Seavert - JangaFX</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 11:57 AM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Nah, beta actually had nodes <img loading="lazy" class="chatlog__emoji " alt="😄" title="smile" src="files/twemoji_1f604.svg"></span>

                    </div>




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<div class="chatlog__message-group">
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025844235485843528" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025844235485843528">
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                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/ac726b5857221d734c474b9280b0f2ae-EC09E.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="vassvik#0798" data-user-id="132475694293843968">mv</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 11:58 AM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">The MVP had most of the core simulation tech, but missing most of the advanced and complex features, UI and UX</span>

                    </div>




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<div class="chatlog__message-group">
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025844275113639956" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025844275113639956">
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                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/500a026bbe575d128b125d0cf0651a26-22B85.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="JangaFX#1318" data-user-id="218509869282492416">Nick Seavert - JangaFX</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 11:58 AM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Exactly</span>

                    </div>




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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025844621655421048" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025844621655421048">
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                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/ac726b5857221d734c474b9280b0f2ae-EC09E.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                        <div class="chatlog__reference">
                                <img class="chatlog__reference-avatar" src="files/c72723180bf059e8dbc35e6eaf9e0fa1-1FB1F.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="azmr#4870">Andrew (azmr)</div>
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-content">
                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '1025843873848762510')">
how long into development was this and what features did you <em>exclude</em> in the process of getting there?                                    </span>

                                </div>
                        </div>
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="vassvik#0798" data-user-id="132475694293843968">mv</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 12:00 PM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I can't really say we excluded anything at that point. We shortly touched on the unknowns and lack of initial direction before, and we didn't really know what the final product would need/have</span>

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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025844335620669492" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025844335620669492">
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                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/7d1e6c8c57dd77a1fa0f2d843fd66cc5-4208E.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(155, 89, 182)" title="abnercoimbre#4546" data-user-id="754449440483311728">Abner Coimbre</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 11:59 AM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Here's another interesting question for the people who have hired contractors or employees. (This was a discussion I was having with <span class="chatlog__markdown-mention" title="Allen4th#9584">@Allen4th</span> recently.) If the person you hired has their own side projects, and they tell you about it (C.Y.A. aka Cover Your Ass), how concerned are you about <a class="inserted-after" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intellectual_property" target="_blank">intellectual property</a>, <a class="inserted-after" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conflict_of_interest" target="_blank">conflicts of interest</a>, etc.?</span>

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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025844447520493759" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025844447520493759">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 11:59 AM">11:59</div>
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">How do you ensure they feel like you won't sue them, and how do you ensure you feel your trade secrets are safe?</span>

                            <span class="chatlog__edited-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 11:59 AM">(edited)</span>
                    </div>




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<div class="chatlog__message-group">
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025844546862600323" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025844546862600323">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/500a026bbe575d128b125d0cf0651a26-22B85.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="JangaFX#1318" data-user-id="218509869282492416">Nick Seavert - JangaFX</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 11:59 AM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">People in our company are able to work on their own projects freely as long as it doesn't conflict with our work or compete against us. Example: Odin being a project on the side</span>

                    </div>




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    </div>
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025844591234129950" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025844591234129950">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 12:00 PM">12:00</div>
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Other than that, we just have to trust them. Otherwise they'll get Sued</span>

                            <span class="chatlog__edited-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 12:00 PM">(edited)</span>
                    </div>




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        </div>
    </div>
</div>



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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025844670825246812" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025844670825246812">
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                        <div class="chatlog__reference-symbol"></div>
                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/cbdd38f420dd16b5f8a79b9aefd66692-078C7.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                        <div class="chatlog__reference">
                                <img class="chatlog__reference-avatar" src="files/0be34eb37a223ff9b4c6214888310d87-1F0CE.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="Zeanith#5921">Zeanith</div>
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-content">
                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '1025842876292276295')">
<span class="chatlog__markdown-mention" title="JangaFX#1318">@Nick Seavert - JangaFX</span> sorry about your experience, the few people I do know in entrepreneurial endeavors all have some story of how a friendship was compromised due to their pursuit. Not for this to be a morbid tangent.                                    </span>

                                </div>
                        </div>
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(22, 235, 183)" title="philliptrudeau#8865" data-user-id="335466817910996992">philliptrudeau</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 12:00 PM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">For practical advice that might help tiny teams that are starting out: It's helpful to set out explicit ground rules about decisionmaking/onboarding/etc., and a clear separation of responsibilities. (Also, get stuff like contracts written out early if you can -- I know talking on Slack/Discord can be pretty chill, but one of your team members is eventually gonna be in a difficult situation, and you want everyone to be on the same page by then!)</span>

                    </div>




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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025844604966285323" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025844604966285323">
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                        <div class="chatlog__reference-symbol"></div>
                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/89747c254631bcfd05c5c3e7141389aa-A1FB9.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                        <div class="chatlog__reference">
                                <img class="chatlog__reference-avatar" src="files/7d1e6c8c57dd77a1fa0f2d843fd66cc5-4208E.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(155, 89, 182)" title="abnercoimbre#4546">Abner Coimbre</div>
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-content">
                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '1025844447520493759')">
How do you ensure they feel like you won't sue them, and how do you ensure you feel your trade secrets are safe?                                    </span>

                                        <span class="chatlog__reference-edited-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 11:59 AM">(edited)</span>
                                </div>
                        </div>
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 12:00 PM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">as a first approximation, there is nothing you can do that is economically rational</span>

                    </div>




                    <div class="chatlog__reactions">
                            <div class="chatlog__reaction" title="100">
                                <img class="chatlog__emoji chatlog__emoji--small" alt="💯" src="files/1f4af-2188D.svg" loading="lazy">
                                <span class="chatlog__reaction-count">1</span>
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<div class="chatlog__message-group">
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                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/89747c254631bcfd05c5c3e7141389aa-A1FB9.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 12:00 PM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">protecting against low-probability events is not compatible with early-stage organizational goals</span>

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<div class="chatlog__message-group">
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025844792216793171" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025844792216793171">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/7d1e6c8c57dd77a1fa0f2d843fd66cc5-4208E.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(155, 89, 182)" title="abnercoimbre#4546" data-user-id="754449440483311728">Abner Coimbre</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 12:00 PM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">mmm, interesting</span>

                    </div>




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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025844836470882366" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025844836470882366">
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            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/89747c254631bcfd05c5c3e7141389aa-A1FB9.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 12:01 PM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">obviously your contract should have standard terms like non-disclosure, and IP/copyright assignment</span>

                    </div>




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<div class="chatlog__message-group">
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025844881987481671" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025844881987481671">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/500a026bbe575d128b125d0cf0651a26-22B85.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="JangaFX#1318" data-user-id="218509869282492416">Nick Seavert - JangaFX</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 12:01 PM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">This</span>

                    </div>




            </div>
        </div>
    </div>
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025844916577898517" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025844916577898517">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 12:01 PM">12:01</div>
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">We cover our ass via contracts</span>

                    </div>




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<div class="chatlog__message-group">
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025844927277563986" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025844927277563986">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/89747c254631bcfd05c5c3e7141389aa-A1FB9.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 12:01 PM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">but actually enforcing that, if it ever comes to it, costs tens of thousands of dollars</span>

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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025845301526929458" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025845301526929458">
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            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/cbdd38f420dd16b5f8a79b9aefd66692-078C7.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(22, 235, 183)" title="philliptrudeau#8865" data-user-id="335466817910996992">philliptrudeau</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 12:02 PM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Yeah, at a small scale you want your technical people working on things that make them interested, even just to keep them motivated if nothing else.</span>

                            <span class="chatlog__edited-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 12:03 PM">(edited)</span>
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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025845064511012926" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025845064511012926">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/500a026bbe575d128b125d0cf0651a26-22B85.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="JangaFX#1318" data-user-id="218509869282492416">Nick Seavert - JangaFX</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 12:02 PM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">And we encourage side project development as it turns into really neat new things that we could possibly use to grow the company. Like our new terrain editor we're working on</span>

                            <span class="chatlog__edited-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 12:02 PM">(edited)</span>
                    </div>




            </div>
        </div>
    </div>
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025845129673724024" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025845129673724024">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 12:02 PM">12:02</div>
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Started out as "hey i'm doing this thing, would you want it to be a jangafx project?</span>

                    </div>




            </div>
        </div>
    </div>
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025845191753613333" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025845191753613333">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 12:02 PM">12:02</div>
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Then boom, add some funding to it and now it's a real product we're doing</span>

                    </div>




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<div class="chatlog__message-group">
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025845391943545022" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025845391943545022">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/500a026bbe575d128b125d0cf0651a26-22B85.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="JangaFX#1318" data-user-id="218509869282492416">Nick Seavert - JangaFX</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 12:03 PM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I don't know how this stuff works at higher scales i.e 80+ people</span>

                    </div>




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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025845514954096730" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025845514954096730">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 12:03 PM">12:03</div>
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">But for now, we're doing good, the team is very happy, and most are on the same page and I don't think they'd do anything to wrong us as it would hurt them as well</span>

                    </div>




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<div class="chatlog__message-group">
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025845594855583784" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025845594855583784">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                        <div class="chatlog__reference-symbol"></div>
                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/ac726b5857221d734c474b9280b0f2ae-EC09E.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                        <div class="chatlog__reference">
                                <img class="chatlog__reference-avatar" src="files/500a026bbe575d128b125d0cf0651a26-22B85.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="" title="JangaFX#1318">Nick Seavert - JangaFX</div>
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-content">
                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '1025845129673724024')">
Started out as "hey i'm doing this thing, would you want it to be a jangafx project?                                    </span>

                                </div>
                        </div>
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="vassvik#0798" data-user-id="132475694293843968">mv</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 12:04 PM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Lets not forget this person has a small stake in the company and has financial incentives in including it in our portfolio. Taking an arbitrary employee's idea and running with isn't as easy without proper compensation</span>

                    </div>




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<div class="chatlog__message-group">
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025845658105683968" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025845658105683968">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/500a026bbe575d128b125d0cf0651a26-22B85.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="JangaFX#1318" data-user-id="218509869282492416">Nick Seavert - JangaFX</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 12:04 PM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">This is true too</span>

                    </div>




            </div>
        </div>
    </div>
</div><div class="chatlog__message-group" style="">
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025845575658242138" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025845575658242138">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/cbdd38f420dd16b5f8a79b9aefd66692-078C7.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(22, 235, 183)" title="philliptrudeau#8865" data-user-id="335466817910996992">philliptrudeau</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 12:04 PM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">The impression I got was that Google basically angel-invests their employees to rabbithole on new projects just in case it's the next big thing</span>

                    </div>




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        </div>
    </div>
</div><div class="chatlog__message-group" style="">
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025845596726231112" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025845596726231112">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/cbdd38f420dd16b5f8a79b9aefd66692-078C7.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(22, 235, 183)" title="philliptrudeau#8865" data-user-id="335466817910996992">philliptrudeau</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 12:04 PM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Like Google Stadia!</span>

                    </div>




            </div>
        </div>
    </div>
</div>



<div class="chatlog__message-group">
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025845761742737458" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025845761742737458">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/500a026bbe575d128b125d0cf0651a26-22B85.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="JangaFX#1318" data-user-id="218509869282492416">Nick Seavert - JangaFX</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 12:04 PM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I thought it died years ago, but turns out it died yesterday lol</span>

                    </div>




                    <div class="chatlog__reactions">
                            <div class="chatlog__reaction" title="smiley">
                                <img class="chatlog__emoji chatlog__emoji--small" alt="😃" src="files/1f603-95789.svg" loading="lazy">
                                <span class="chatlog__reaction-count">1</span>
                            </div>
                    </div>
            </div>
        </div>
    </div>
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025845817283727360" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025845817283727360">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 12:05 PM">12:05</div>
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">After GDC 2019 i never heard of it again</span>

                    </div>




            </div>
        </div>
    </div>
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025845857884590090" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025845857884590090">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 12:05 PM">12:05</div>
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">In the grave where it belongs</span>

                    </div>




            </div>
        </div>
    </div>
</div>



<div class="chatlog__message-group">
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025846015250681957" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025846015250681957">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/cbdd38f420dd16b5f8a79b9aefd66692-078C7.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(22, 235, 183)" title="philliptrudeau#8865" data-user-id="335466817910996992">philliptrudeau</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 12:05 PM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Must be a lot of grumpy skeleton crews working at some game studios targeting stadia!</span>

                    </div>




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        </div>
    </div>
</div>



<div class="chatlog__message-group">
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025846351830986882" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025846351830986882">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                        <div class="chatlog__reference-symbol"></div>
                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/7d1e6c8c57dd77a1fa0f2d843fd66cc5-4208E.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                        <div class="chatlog__reference">
                                <img class="chatlog__reference-avatar" src="files/500a026bbe575d128b125d0cf0651a26-22B85.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="" title="JangaFX#1318">Nick Seavert - JangaFX</div>
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-content">
                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '1025844916577898517')">
We cover our ass via contracts                                    </span>

                                </div>
                        </div>
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(155, 89, 182)" title="abnercoimbre#4546" data-user-id="754449440483311728">Abner Coimbre</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 12:07 PM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Which contract templates do you recommend, if any? Did you hire a lawyer to figure that out? Say I want <span class="chatlog__markdown-mention" title="Zeanith#5921">@Zeanith</span> to contribute to my terminal emulator codebase. What's a useful way to ensure that my codebase is still owned by me? And then Zeanith also wants to reuse specific implementations that he developed on the job. I should probably be okay with that, but this feels like it's getting hairy.</span>

                    </div>




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<div class="chatlog__message-group">
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025846419539624038" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025846419539624038">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/500a026bbe575d128b125d0cf0651a26-22B85.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="JangaFX#1318" data-user-id="218509869282492416">Nick Seavert - JangaFX</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 12:07 PM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">We hired a lawyer</span>

                    </div>




            </div>
        </div>
    </div>
</div>



<div class="chatlog__message-group">
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025846586204499998" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025846586204499998">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/0be34eb37a223ff9b4c6214888310d87-1F0CE.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="Zeanith#5921" data-user-id="90567213731303424">Zeanith</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 12:08 PM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Be safe, dont hire <span class="chatlog__markdown-mention" title="Zeanith#5921">@Zeanith</span></span>

                    </div>




                    <div class="chatlog__reactions">
                            <div class="chatlog__reaction" title="joy">
                                <img class="chatlog__emoji chatlog__emoji--small" alt="😂" src="files/1f602-20224.svg" loading="lazy">
                                <span class="chatlog__reaction-count">1</span>
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        </div>
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</div>



<div class="chatlog__message-group">
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025846587177574411" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025846587177574411">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                        <div class="chatlog__reference-symbol"></div>
                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/c72723180bf059e8dbc35e6eaf9e0fa1-1FB1F.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                        <div class="chatlog__reference">
                                <img class="chatlog__reference-avatar" src="files/7d1e6c8c57dd77a1fa0f2d843fd66cc5-4208E.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(155, 89, 182)" title="abnercoimbre#4546">Abner Coimbre</div>
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-content">
                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '1025846351830986882')">
Which contract templates do you recommend, if any? Did you hire a lawyer to figure that out? Say I want <span class="chatlog__markdown-mention" title="Zeanith#5921">@Zeanith</span> to contribute to my terminal emulator codebase. What's a useful way to ensure that my codebase is still owned by me? And then Zeanith also wants to reuse specific implementations that he developed on the job. I should probably be okay with that, but this feels like it's getting hairy.                                    </span>

                                </div>
                        </div>
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="azmr#4870" data-user-id="240986595749134336">Andrew (azmr)</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 12:08 PM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">one of you will own the code in question, but they can give the other person an infinite license to do what they want with it</span>

                    </div>




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<div class="chatlog__message-group">
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025846728697577473" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025846728697577473">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/7d1e6c8c57dd77a1fa0f2d843fd66cc5-4208E.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(155, 89, 182)" title="abnercoimbre#4546" data-user-id="754449440483311728">Abner Coimbre</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 12:08 PM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Oh?</span>

                    </div>




            </div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-group">
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025846733571358831" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025846733571358831">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/c72723180bf059e8dbc35e6eaf9e0fa1-1FB1F.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="azmr#4870" data-user-id="240986595749134336">Andrew (azmr)</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 12:08 PM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">the main distinction between owning and licensing is whose job it is to get legal if someone else misuses it</span>

                    </div>




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<div class="chatlog__message-group">
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025846773257879713" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025846773257879713">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/89747c254631bcfd05c5c3e7141389aa-A1FB9.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 12:08 PM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">there are contract template sites like Nolo (I have happily used them before)</span>

                    </div>




            </div>
        </div>
    </div>
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025846824310935603" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025846824310935603">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 12:09 PM">12:09</div>
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">but really, the problem is not the contract in 90% of problems</span>

                    </div>




            </div>
        </div>
    </div>
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025846854191161424" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025846854191161424">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 12:09 PM">12:09</div>
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">this is what I mean about economic rationality</span>

                    </div>




            </div>
        </div>
    </div>
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025846870569926716" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025846870569926716">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 12:09 PM">12:09</div>
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">95% of the time, you will have no problem</span>

                    </div>




            </div>
        </div>
    </div>
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025846911493746718" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025846911493746718">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 12:09 PM">12:09</div>
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">in the remaining 5%, 90% of the time the problem will not be the contract</span>

                    </div>




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<div class="chatlog__message-group">
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025846978258686054" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025846978258686054">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/7d1e6c8c57dd77a1fa0f2d843fd66cc5-4208E.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(155, 89, 182)" title="abnercoimbre#4546" data-user-id="754449440483311728">Abner Coimbre</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 12:09 PM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve"><img loading="lazy" class="chatlog__emoji chatlog__emoji--large" alt="😦" title="frowning" src="files/twemoji_1f626.svg"></span>

                    </div>




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<div class="chatlog__message-group">
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025846979114303578" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025846979114303578">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/89747c254631bcfd05c5c3e7141389aa-A1FB9.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 12:09 PM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">so now how much do you want to invest in a 0.5% probability problem?</span>

                    </div>




            </div>
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    </div>
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025847115865403524" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025847115865403524">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 12:10 PM">12:10</div>
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">your contract should either make them an employee, or it should stipulate that they transfer all rights</span>

                    </div>




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<div class="chatlog__message-group">
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025847148308332637" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025847148308332637">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/89747c254631bcfd05c5c3e7141389aa-A1FB9.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 12:10 PM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">and in either case, should include non-disclosure</span>

                    </div>




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<div class="chatlog__message-group">
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025846950970527854" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025846950970527854">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/1963eacbf364164efce1c597dc66aeab-E6901.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="bvisness#0001" data-user-id="132715550571888640">bvisness</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 12:09 PM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">re: documents, we just met with a lawyer as part of setting up an HMN nonprofit, and one of the things she told us was that services like LegalZoom don&#39;t actually give legal advice, so they are often garbage in, garbage out</span>

                    </div>




            </div>
        </div>
    </div>
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025847047791853669" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025847047791853669">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 12:09 PM">12:09</div>
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">that is, you put in garbage as a non-lawyer, and they don&#39;t really help</span>

                    </div>




            </div>
        </div>
    </div>
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025847228058837073" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025847228058837073">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 12:10 PM">12:10</div>
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">that said, this was for 501(c)(3) application and such, not routine CYA agreements</span>

                    </div>




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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025847779572072508" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025847779572072508">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/89747c254631bcfd05c5c3e7141389aa-A1FB9.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 12:12 PM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">my sister, a many-hundred-per-hour lawyer, says <a class="inserted-after" href="https://www.legalzoom.com/" target="_blank">legalzoom</a> and <a class="inserted-after" href="https://www.nolo.com/" target="_blank">nolo</a> are totally fine for commodity contracts</span>

                    </div>




            </div>
        </div>
    </div>
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025847829173907516" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025847829173907516">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 12:13 PM">12:13</div>
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">and I have never had any problem using them</span>

                    </div>




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<div class="chatlog__message-group">
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025847144910946405" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025847144910946405">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/cbdd38f420dd16b5f8a79b9aefd66692-078C7.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(22, 235, 183)" title="philliptrudeau#8865" data-user-id="335466817910996992">philliptrudeau</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 12:10 PM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">For our game I used <a href="https://docontract.com/" target="_blank">https://docontract.com/</a> just to have a dead simple agreement in writing. The contractor is the one who retains the rights to their work, but they grant the company perpetual license to redistribute the work (i.e., sell the game content on all platforms) as Andrew just said.</span>

                    </div>


                        <div class="chatlog__embed">
                                <div class="chatlog__embed-color-pill chatlog__embed-color-pill--default"></div>

                            <div class="chatlog__embed-content-container">
                                <div class="chatlog__embed-content">
                                    <div class="chatlog__embed-text">

                                            <div class="chatlog__embed-title">
                                                    <a class="chatlog__embed-title-link" href="https://docontract.com/">
                                                        <div class="chatlog__markdown chatlog__markdown-preserve">contract( )</div>
                                                    </a>
                                            </div>

                                            <div class="chatlog__embed-description">
                                                <div class="chatlog__markdown chatlog__markdown-preserve">contract( ) (pronounced 'do contract') generates free, plain language agreements for and between game developers.</div>
                                            </div>

                                    </div>

                                        <div class="chatlog__embed-thumbnail-container">
                                            <a class="chatlog__embed-thumbnail-link" href="files/docontract-howitworks-CC7ED.png">
                                                <img class="chatlog__embed-thumbnail" src="files/docontract-howitworks-CC7ED.png" alt="Thumbnail" loading="lazy">
                                            </a>
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<div class="chatlog__message-group">
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025847218671988817" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025847218671988817">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/500a026bbe575d128b125d0cf0651a26-22B85.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="JangaFX#1318" data-user-id="218509869282492416">Nick Seavert - JangaFX</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 12:10 PM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">you can always use a template and then lawyer it later and revise said contract</span>

                    </div>




            </div>
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    </div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-group">
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025847224640471187" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025847224640471187">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                        <div class="chatlog__reference-symbol"></div>
                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/89747c254631bcfd05c5c3e7141389aa-A1FB9.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                        <div class="chatlog__reference">
                                <img class="chatlog__reference-avatar" src="files/cbdd38f420dd16b5f8a79b9aefd66692-078C7.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(22, 235, 183)" title="philliptrudeau#8865">philliptrudeau</div>
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-content">
                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '1025847144910946405')">
For our game I used <a href="https://docontract.com/" target="_blank">https://docontract.com/</a> just to have a dead simple agreement in writing. The contractor is the one who retains the rights to their work, but they grant the company perpetual license to redistribute the work (i.e., sell the game content on all platforms) as Andrew just said.                                    </span>

                                </div>
                        </div>
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 12:10 PM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">this is IMO too friendly to the contractor</span>

                    </div>




                    <div class="chatlog__reactions">
                            <div class="chatlog__reaction" title="eyes">
                                <img class="chatlog__emoji chatlog__emoji--small" alt="👀" src="files/1f440-31786.svg" loading="lazy">
                                <span class="chatlog__reaction-count">1</span>
                            </div>
                    </div>
            </div>
        </div>
    </div>
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025847289710915594" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025847289710915594">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 12:10 PM">12:10</div>
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I would not hire a contractor who was not willing to do IP assignment / work-for-hire</span>

                    </div>




            </div>
        </div>
    </div>
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025847346837331998" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025847346837331998">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 12:11 PM">12:11</div>
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            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">there's no reason to give them the ability to hold on to IP developed downstream of your own</span>

                    </div>




            </div>
        </div>
    </div>
</div>



<div class="chatlog__message-group">
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025847367716573275" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025847367716573275">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/ac726b5857221d734c474b9280b0f2ae-EC09E.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="vassvik#0798" data-user-id="132475694293843968">mv</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 12:11 PM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Sounds like a nightmare</span>

                    </div>




            </div>
        </div>
    </div>
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025847449316773948" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025847449316773948">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 12:11 PM">12:11</div>
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Legally and logistically</span>

                    </div>




            </div>
        </div>
    </div>
</div>



<div class="chatlog__message-group">
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025847451418116187" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025847451418116187">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/89747c254631bcfd05c5c3e7141389aa-A1FB9.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 12:11 PM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">if they want to make their own thing, on their own time, and then charge me a license then that's fine</span>

                    </div>




            </div>
        </div>
    </div>
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025847475468243015" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025847475468243015">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 12:11 PM">12:11</div>
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">if I'm paying for you to build it, I own it, end of story</span>

                    </div>




                    <div class="chatlog__reactions">
                            <div class="chatlog__reaction" title="this">
                                <img class="chatlog__emoji chatlog__emoji--small" alt="this" src="files/993735162263257141-981D5.png" loading="lazy">
                                <span class="chatlog__reaction-count">2</span>
                            </div>
                    </div>
            </div>
        </div>
    </div>
</div>



<div class="chatlog__message-group">
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025847508053798962" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025847508053798962">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/500a026bbe575d128b125d0cf0651a26-22B85.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="JangaFX#1318" data-user-id="218509869282492416">Nick Seavert - JangaFX</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 12:11 PM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Yep</span>

                    </div>




            </div>
        </div>
    </div>
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025847585937817700" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025847585937817700">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 12:12 PM">12:12</div>
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">If someone is doing any coding work and it relates to us or the projects we have internally, and we are paying you, its ours.</span>

                    </div>




            </div>
        </div>
    </div>
</div>



<div class="chatlog__message-group">
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025847602958315562" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025847602958315562">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/cbdd38f420dd16b5f8a79b9aefd66692-078C7.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(22, 235, 183)" title="philliptrudeau#8865" data-user-id="335466817910996992">philliptrudeau</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 12:12 PM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">For us, we had artists where I did not want to take away their rights to their art, but it makes sense for larger projects that the company owns the art.</span>

                    </div>




            </div>
        </div>
    </div>
</div>



<div class="chatlog__message-group">
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025847735255044149" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025847735255044149">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                        <div class="chatlog__reference-symbol"></div>
                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/7d1e6c8c57dd77a1fa0f2d843fd66cc5-4208E.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                        <div class="chatlog__reference">
                                <img class="chatlog__reference-avatar" src="files/89747c254631bcfd05c5c3e7141389aa-A1FB9.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588">demetrispanos</div>
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-content">
                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '1025847475468243015')">
if I'm paying for you to build it, I own it, end of story                                    </span>

                                </div>
                        </div>
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(155, 89, 182)" title="abnercoimbre#4546" data-user-id="754449440483311728">Abner Coimbre</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 12:12 PM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">This has given me a lot of clarity. Thank you</span>

                    </div>




            </div>
        </div>
    </div>
</div>



<div class="chatlog__message-group">
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025847748152524831" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025847748152524831">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/cbdd38f420dd16b5f8a79b9aefd66692-078C7.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(22, 235, 183)" title="philliptrudeau#8865" data-user-id="335466817910996992">philliptrudeau</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 12:12 PM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">At bigger studios, artists are doing style-matching anyway, so it's not necessarily a very pure form of self-expression.</span>

                    </div>




            </div>
        </div>
    </div>
</div>



<div class="chatlog__message-group">
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025847967208439818" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025847967208439818">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/500a026bbe575d128b125d0cf0651a26-22B85.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="JangaFX#1318" data-user-id="218509869282492416">Nick Seavert - JangaFX</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 12:13 PM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I like <span class="chatlog__markdown-mention" title="demetrispanos#5588">@demetrispanos</span> brevity</span>

                    </div>




            </div>
        </div>
    </div>
</div>



<div class="chatlog__message-group">
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025848015119986728" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025848015119986728">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/1963eacbf364164efce1c597dc66aeab-E6901.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="bvisness#0001" data-user-id="132715550571888640">bvisness</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 12:13 PM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">we all do</span>

                    </div>




            </div>
        </div>
    </div>
</div>



<div class="chatlog__message-group">
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025848087106818119" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025848087106818119">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/500a026bbe575d128b125d0cf0651a26-22B85.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="JangaFX#1318" data-user-id="218509869282492416">Nick Seavert - JangaFX</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 12:14 PM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I'm a man of long wind</span>

                    </div>




            </div>
        </div>
    </div>
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025848141754404944" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025848141754404944">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 12:14 PM">12:14</div>
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">A team meeting without me is a dead meeting</span>

                    </div>




            </div>
        </div>
    </div>
</div>



<div class="chatlog__message-group">
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025848143067226182" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025848143067226182">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/ac726b5857221d734c474b9280b0f2ae-EC09E.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="vassvik#0798" data-user-id="132475694293843968">mv</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 12:14 PM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Speaking of contracts. Our initial setup wasn't exactly top notch xD</span>

                    </div>




            </div>
        </div>
    </div>
</div>



<div class="chatlog__message-group">
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025848206459945083" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025848206459945083">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/500a026bbe575d128b125d0cf0651a26-22B85.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="JangaFX#1318" data-user-id="218509869282492416">Nick Seavert - JangaFX</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 12:14 PM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Our EULA was written by me</span>

                    </div>




            </div>
        </div>
    </div>
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025848232921813104" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025848232921813104">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 12:14 PM">12:14</div>
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Still is to this day</span>

                    </div>




                    <div class="chatlog__reactions">
                            <div class="chatlog__reaction" title="philli47Chad">
                                <img class="chatlog__emoji chatlog__emoji--small" alt="philli47Chad" src="files/952229594596003900-88E24.png" loading="lazy">
                                <span class="chatlog__reaction-count">1</span>
                            </div>
                    </div>
            </div>
        </div>
    </div>
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025848440518881330" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025848440518881330">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 12:15 PM">12:15</div>
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">But initially we used boilerplate for sure. When we had the money we lawyered. We made mistakes, and then fixed them. Now we're fixing more stuff etc</span>

                    </div>




            </div>
        </div>
    </div>
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025848472294924298" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025848472294924298">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 12:15 PM">12:15</div>
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Its an ongoing process as you learn</span>

                    </div>




            </div>
        </div>
    </div>
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025848488480735262" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025848488480735262">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 12:15 PM">12:15</div>
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I try not to get too caught up in it and just make do with what we have until we see that there's an issue</span>

                            <span class="chatlog__edited-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 12:15 PM">(edited)</span>
                    </div>




            </div>
        </div>
    </div>
</div>



<div class="chatlog__message-group">
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025848637344981002" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025848637344981002">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/cbdd38f420dd16b5f8a79b9aefd66692-078C7.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(22, 235, 183)" title="philliptrudeau#8865" data-user-id="335466817910996992">philliptrudeau</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 12:16 PM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">When you're 2 dudes in a basement, boilerplate helps establish boundaries ASAP, which you can revise into more serious agreements as you grow and lawyer up</span>

                    </div>




            </div>
        </div>
    </div>
</div>



<div class="chatlog__message-group">
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025848641375711322" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025848641375711322">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/7d1e6c8c57dd77a1fa0f2d843fd66cc5-4208E.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(155, 89, 182)" title="abnercoimbre#4546" data-user-id="754449440483311728">Abner Coimbre</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 12:16 PM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Yeah this is not too different from practicing your networking skills. Maybe there's a little more stress with legal stuff, but you can still make mistakes and fix</span>

                            <span class="chatlog__edited-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 12:16 PM">(edited)</span>
                    </div>




            </div>
        </div>
    </div>
</div>



<div class="chatlog__message-group">
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025848798062329946" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025848798062329946">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/500a026bbe575d128b125d0cf0651a26-22B85.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="JangaFX#1318" data-user-id="218509869282492416">Nick Seavert - JangaFX</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 12:16 PM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">It's kind of like the time we wrote a letter to the IRS telling them that we were sorry and they let us off the hook</span>

                            <span class="chatlog__edited-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 12:17 PM">(edited)</span>
                    </div>




                    <div class="chatlog__reactions">
                            <div class="chatlog__reaction" title="philli47Chad">
                                <img class="chatlog__emoji chatlog__emoji--small" alt="philli47Chad" src="files/952229594596003900-88E24.png" loading="lazy">
                                <span class="chatlog__reaction-count">1</span>
                            </div>
                    </div>
            </div>
        </div>
    </div>
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025848806543208498" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025848806543208498">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 12:16 PM">12:16</div>
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve"><img loading="lazy" class="chatlog__emoji chatlog__emoji--large" alt="😄" title="smile" src="files/twemoji_1f604.svg"></span>

                    </div>




            </div>
        </div>
    </div>
</div>



<div class="chatlog__message-group" style="">
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025848862096769044" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025848862096769044">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/7d1e6c8c57dd77a1fa0f2d843fd66cc5-4208E.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(155, 89, 182)" title="abnercoimbre#4546" data-user-id="754449440483311728">Abner Coimbre</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 12:17 PM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I have gotten into <em>hot water</em> with the tax man.</span>

                    </div>




            </div>
        </div>
    </div>
</div><div class="chatlog__message-group" style="">
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025848933748056205" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025848933748056205">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/7d1e6c8c57dd77a1fa0f2d843fd66cc5-4208E.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(155, 89, 182)" title="abnercoimbre#4546" data-user-id="754449440483311728">Abner Coimbre</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 12:17 PM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">In August they closed my business account and revoked my license <img loading="lazy" class="chatlog__emoji " alt="😬" title="grimacing" src="files/twemoji_1f62c.svg"></span>

                            <span class="chatlog__edited-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 12:17 PM">(edited)</span>
                    </div>




            </div>
        </div>
    </div>
</div><div class="chatlog__message-group" style="">
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025849152539738132" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025849152539738132">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/7d1e6c8c57dd77a1fa0f2d843fd66cc5-4208E.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(155, 89, 182)" title="abnercoimbre#4546" data-user-id="754449440483311728">Abner Coimbre</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 12:18 PM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">(All resolved. But the point is we're all human and make mistakes. You can almost always fix them.)</span>

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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025848814503993385" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025848814503993385">
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                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/89747c254631bcfd05c5c3e7141389aa-A1FB9.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 12:16 PM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">yeah I guess the other thing I'd point out is that as soon as you are engaging the legal system for any reason, you are losing</span>

                    </div>




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    </div>
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025848824784232608" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025848824784232608">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 12:16 PM">12:16</div>
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">even if you "win"</span>

                    </div>




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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025849153563152475" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025849153563152475">
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            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/500a026bbe575d128b125d0cf0651a26-22B85.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="JangaFX#1318" data-user-id="218509869282492416">Nick Seavert - JangaFX</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 12:18 PM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Hire an accountant and do not under any circumstances mix personal and business finances</span>

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<div class="chatlog__message-group" style="">
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025849514923413555" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025849514923413555">
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                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/500a026bbe575d128b125d0cf0651a26-22B85.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
            </div>

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                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="JangaFX#1318" data-user-id="218509869282492416">Nick Seavert - JangaFX</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 12:19 PM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">My final advice on legal stuff is this: I knew a lawyer representing a very large international company and they told me "We're all just guessing, so pick which guess you want"</span>

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                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/7d1e6c8c57dd77a1fa0f2d843fd66cc5-4208E.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
            </div>

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                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(155, 89, 182)" title="abnercoimbre#4546" data-user-id="754449440483311728">Abner Coimbre</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 12:20 PM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">That's so important to know</span>

                    </div>




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        </div>
    </div>
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025849653712924672" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025849653712924672">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 12:20 PM">12:20</div>
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Don't let your engineer perfectionism think there's a perfect modeling of the social world</span>

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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025849707630690325" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025849707630690325">
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                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/500a026bbe575d128b125d0cf0651a26-22B85.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="JangaFX#1318" data-user-id="218509869282492416">Nick Seavert - JangaFX</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 12:20 PM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Took a lot of stress off of me <img loading="lazy" class="chatlog__emoji " alt="🙂" title="slight_smile" src="files/twemoji_1f642.svg"></span>

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                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/7d1e6c8c57dd77a1fa0f2d843fd66cc5-4208E.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(155, 89, 182)" title="abnercoimbre#4546" data-user-id="754449440483311728">Abner Coimbre</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 12:20 PM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Same</span>

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                        <div class="chatlog__reference">
                                <img class="chatlog__reference-avatar" src="files/500a026bbe575d128b125d0cf0651a26-22B85.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="" title="JangaFX#1318">Nick Seavert - JangaFX</div>
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-content">
                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '1025849514923413555')">
My final advice on legal stuff is this: I knew a lawyer representing a very large international company and they told me "We're all just guessing, so pick which guess you want"                                    </span>

                                </div>
                        </div>
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="JangaFX#1318" data-user-id="218509869282492416">Nick Seavert - JangaFX</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 12:21 PM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">This is not legal advice, i'm not going to get sued by you, etc etc™️</span>

                            <span class="chatlog__edited-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 12:21 PM">(edited)</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="Allen4th#9584" data-user-id="273134589000810496">Allen4th</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 12:17 PM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I think this can segue into something very near and dear to my heart. Let's say there are projects you want to do, that at a technical level will clearly be a benefit to a lot of people, but there's very little obvious way to commoditize them?

For example, say you're building something in the core tool chain like a programming language, <a class="inserted-after" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Object_file" target="_blank">object file format</a>, <a class="inserted-after" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debugging_data_format" target="_blank">debug file format</a>, <a class="inserted-after" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linker_(computing)" target="_blank">linker</a>, etc. Producing documentation for existing formats, utility libraries to make better analysis of these kinds of data, etc. etc. When I look at these sorts of projects the biggest problem is that they cost money to build but I see no way to make money from them without killing the entire benefit of the project, which is making it more likely that all the software out there dealing with this core tool chain works well.

What is a handmade programmer to do?</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="Allen4th#9584" data-user-id="273134589000810496">Allen4th</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 12:17 PM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">(when I was writing the post we were still talking about IP and not taxes <img loading="lazy" class="chatlog__emoji " alt="😆" title="laughing" src="files/twemoji_1f606.svg"> )</span>

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                                <img class="chatlog__emoji chatlog__emoji--small" alt="🙃" src="files/1f643-D977D.svg" loading="lazy">
                                <span class="chatlog__reaction-count">1</span>
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                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="Allen4th#9584">Allen4th</div>
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-content">
                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '1025848834598903961')">
I think this can segue into something very near and dear to my heart. Let's say there are projects you want to do, that at a technical level will clearly be a benefit to a lot of people, but there's very little obvious way to commoditize them?

For example, say you're building something in the core tool chain like a programming language, object file format, debug file format, linker, etc. Producing documentation for existing formats, utility libraries to make better analysis of these kinds of data, etc. etc. When I look at these sorts of projects the biggest problem is that they cost money to build but I see no way to make money from them without killing the entire benefit of the project, which is making it more likely that all the software out there dealing with this core tool chain works well.

What is a handmade programmer to do?                                    </span>

                                </div>
                        </div>
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="Zeanith#5921" data-user-id="90567213731303424">Zeanith</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 12:18 PM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I was just about to ask about segueing into funding. Casey used to have a Handmade Fund that he unfortunately wound down, due to this reason.</span>

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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025849192511451266" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025849192511451266">
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                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="Allen4th#9584">Allen4th</div>
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-content">
                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '1025848834598903961')">
I think this can segue into something very near and dear to my heart. Let's say there are projects you want to do, that at a technical level will clearly be a benefit to a lot of people, but there's very little obvious way to commoditize them?

For example, say you're building something in the core tool chain like a programming language, object file format, debug file format, linker, etc. Producing documentation for existing formats, utility libraries to make better analysis of these kinds of data, etc. etc. When I look at these sorts of projects the biggest problem is that they cost money to build but I see no way to make money from them without killing the entire benefit of the project, which is making it more likely that all the software out there dealing with this core tool chain works well.

What is a handmade programmer to do?                                    </span>

                                </div>
                        </div>
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="azmr#4870" data-user-id="240986595749134336">Andrew (azmr)</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 12:18 PM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">the Zig lot seem to be doing a pretty good job with this</span>

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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025849861091893248" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025849861091893248">
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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="azmr#4870" data-user-id="240986595749134336">Andrew (azmr)</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 12:21 PM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">a patreon model and lots of audience interaction may also be possible</span>

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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025849491254956133" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025849491254956133">
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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(22, 235, 183)" title="philliptrudeau#8865" data-user-id="335466817910996992">philliptrudeau</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 12:19 PM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">The current answer pragmatically is "corporate sponsors", but I think the question is more about the philosophy and technique to apply</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="vassvik#0798" data-user-id="132475694293843968">mv</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 12:21 PM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Sort of reeling things in here, but i don't know if we've been able to touch on too many potential overlaps between Handmade and Entrepreneurship. 

Part of the Handmade ethos often includes a variant of  "doing things yourself" or "doing things your own way", which can actually be very benefitial in the path to innovation, if you're able to do something in a way someone isn't able to because they're bogged down in too many paradigms or dogmas, not just technically. Doing something yourself can let you progress and iterate quite rapidly towards an MVP, but it can also be a double edged sword</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="JangaFX#1318" data-user-id="218509869282492416">Nick Seavert - JangaFX</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 12:22 PM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I think handmade applies to entrepreneurship, is with the handmade philosophy you can make almost any program better than any other company out there. Handmade software devs are a rare breed and they have the opportunity to really make waves.</span>

                            <span class="chatlog__edited-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 12:22 PM">(edited)</span>
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                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/7d1e6c8c57dd77a1fa0f2d843fd66cc5-4208E.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(155, 89, 182)" title="abnercoimbre#4546" data-user-id="754449440483311728">Abner Coimbre</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 12:22 PM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Yeah and I'm literally betting on that ability to make waves</span>

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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025850369269563495" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025850369269563495">
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            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 12:23 PM">12:23</div>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">with Handmade Seattle</span>

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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025850496159862906" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025850496159862906">
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                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 12:23 PM">12:23</div>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">and the reason we can't accept corporate sponsors is because we claim we believe in building high quality software. And in innovating for the benefit of the end user</span>

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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025850554993356860" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025850554993356860">
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                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 12:23 PM">12:23</div>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">"this statement was sponsored by Microsoft"</span>

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                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/7d1e6c8c57dd77a1fa0f2d843fd66cc5-4208E.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(155, 89, 182)" title="abnercoimbre#4546" data-user-id="754449440483311728">Abner Coimbre</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 12:24 PM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Kind of falls flat on its face if we're sponsored by companies contributing to the status quo we hate</span>

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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025850557434437672" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025850557434437672">
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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="JangaFX#1318" data-user-id="218509869282492416">Nick Seavert - JangaFX</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 12:23 PM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Apply the same care that you have for software dev to your customers and you can unseat any tool out there</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="JangaFX#1318" data-user-id="218509869282492416">Nick Seavert - JangaFX</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 12:24 PM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Also, if you want to be the tech guy, hire a CEO</span>

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                            <div class="chatlog__reaction" title="point_up_tone1">
                                <img class="chatlog__emoji chatlog__emoji--small" alt="☝🏻" src="files/261d-1f3fb-EBBA6.svg" loading="lazy">
                                <span class="chatlog__reaction-count">1</span>
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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="JangaFX#1318" data-user-id="218509869282492416">Nick Seavert - JangaFX</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 12:25 PM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I had a pretty revealing conversation with one of the co-founders of <a class="inserted-after" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etsy" target="_blank">Etsy</a> years ago. He told me "You need to either learn the software dev and lead this, or just be the CEO"</span>

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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025850898112585909" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025850898112585909">
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                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 12:25 PM">12:25</div>
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            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">And then that's when I tried to find Morten for the tech portion</span>

                            <span class="chatlog__edited-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 12:25 PM">(edited)</span>
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                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="Allen4th#9584">Allen4th</div>
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-content">
                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '1025848834598903961')">
I think this can segue into something very near and dear to my heart. Let's say there are projects you want to do, that at a technical level will clearly be a benefit to a lot of people, but there's very little obvious way to commoditize them?

For example, say you're building something in the core tool chain like a programming language, object file format, debug file format, linker, etc. Producing documentation for existing formats, utility libraries to make better analysis of these kinds of data, etc. etc. When I look at these sorts of projects the biggest problem is that they cost money to build but I see no way to make money from them without killing the entire benefit of the project, which is making it more likely that all the software out there dealing with this core tool chain works well.

What is a handmade programmer to do?                                    </span>

                                </div>
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                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(22, 235, 183)" title="philliptrudeau#8865" data-user-id="335466817910996992">philliptrudeau</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 12:24 PM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">in the worst-case revenue scenarios (like indie games), i think people’s strategy is to just spin up their full-time funding grind. reaching out to interested parties, government grants, publishers, etc. and going through their song and dance to get the next bit of funding. It is a challenge to maintain the handmade ethos along the way, though, as more investors ask more of your product.</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="azmr#4870" data-user-id="240986595749134336">Andrew (azmr)</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 12:23 PM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">on the assumption that people here err towards doing things themselves... I think it's worth paying attention to which components of your product are core to its main selling point and strongly considering using pre-existing components for everything else</span>

                            <span class="chatlog__edited-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 12:24 PM">(edited)</span>
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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(155, 89, 182)" title="abnercoimbre#4546" data-user-id="754449440483311728">Abner Coimbre</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 12:25 PM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">So you don't build everything from scratch with WhiteBox? Only parts you consider to be core to the main selling point?</span>

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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025851222537801848" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025851222537801848">
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                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 12:26 PM">12:26</div>
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            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">There is a skill to researching which libraries you <em>can</em> use to save you time. I went with <a class="inserted-after" href="https://github.com/floooh/sokol" target="_blank">Sokol</a> for Terminal Click, and I got cross-platform modern graphics right away. Before this I spent 3-4 months on <a class="inserted-after" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vulkan" target="_blank">Vulkan</a>, with the end result being a buggy 2D library</span>

                            <span class="chatlog__edited-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 12:27 PM">(edited)</span>
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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025851435604262988" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025851435604262988">
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                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 12:27 PM">12:27</div>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I don't regret learning Vulkan, but it prevented me from iterating on interesting features for too long</span>

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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025851576142798930" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025851576142798930">
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                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 12:27 PM">12:27</div>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">not a wise business move</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="JangaFX#1318" data-user-id="218509869282492416">Nick Seavert - JangaFX</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 12:28 PM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Just going to plop this in as a fantastic resource: <a href="https://successfulsoftware.net/" target="_blank">https://successfulsoftware.net/</a></span>

                    </div>


                        <div class="chatlog__embed">
                                <div class="chatlog__embed-color-pill chatlog__embed-color-pill--default"></div>

                            <div class="chatlog__embed-content-container">
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                                    <div class="chatlog__embed-text">

                                            <div class="chatlog__embed-title">
                                                    <a class="chatlog__embed-title-link" href="https://successfulsoftware.net/">
                                                        <div class="chatlog__markdown chatlog__markdown-preserve">Successful Software</div>
                                                    </a>
                                            </div>

                                            <div class="chatlog__embed-description">
                                                <div class="chatlog__markdown chatlog__markdown-preserve">...requires more than just good programming.</div>
                                            </div>

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                                        <div class="chatlog__embed-thumbnail-container">
                                            <a class="chatlog__embed-thumbnail-link" href="files/948a0589cb38d1d19bd209aa8afb18b6-00BE9">
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                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 12:28 PM">12:28</div>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Helped me so much when starting JangaFX</span>

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                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(155, 89, 182)" title="abnercoimbre#4546">Abner Coimbre</div>
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                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '1025851435604262988')">
I don't regret learning Vulkan, but it prevented me from iterating on interesting features for too long                                    </span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="vassvik#0798" data-user-id="132475694293843968">mv</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 12:28 PM</span>
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                            <div class="chatlog__reaction" title="joy">
                                <img class="chatlog__emoji chatlog__emoji--small" alt="😂" src="files/1f602-20224.svg" loading="lazy">
                                <span class="chatlog__reaction-count">4</span>
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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="JangaFX#1318" data-user-id="218509869282492416">Nick Seavert - JangaFX</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 12:29 PM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve"><img loading="lazy" class="chatlog__emoji chatlog__emoji--large" alt="awkward" title="awkward" src="https://cdn.discordapp.com/emojis/585114338193440790.gif"></span>

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                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(155, 89, 182)" title="abnercoimbre#4546">Abner Coimbre</div>
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                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '1025851435604262988')">
I don't regret learning Vulkan, but it prevented me from iterating on interesting features for too long                                    </span>

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                        </div>
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="Zeanith#5921" data-user-id="90567213731303424">Zeanith</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 12:29 PM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Is this the double-edged sword <span class="chatlog__markdown-mention" title="vassvik#0798">@mv</span> alluded to? Basically iteration speed over deep reengineering  for technical prowess? I guess a handmade dev should be aware that this is a tradeoff, although we seem to generally skew heavily towards technical prowess.</span>

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                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="Zeanith#5921">Zeanith</div>
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                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '1025852045443465366')">
Is this the double-edged sword <span class="chatlog__markdown-mention" title="vassvik#0798">@mv</span> alluded to? Basically iteration speed over deep reengineering  for technical prowess? I guess a handmade dev should be aware that this is a tradeoff, although we seem to generally skew heavily towards technical prowess.                                    </span>

                                </div>
                        </div>
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="vassvik#0798" data-user-id="132475694293843968">mv</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 12:31 PM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">not too sure tbh. rather, the double edged sword is often a predisposition for doing 80% solutions, as you don't know what the other 80% is, and you just can't know what will eventually be needed. If you keep going for too long without mending past mistakes (with hindsight) you basically get tech debt galore</span>

                            <span class="chatlog__edited-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 12:32 PM">(edited)</span>
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                                <span class="chatlog__reaction-count">1</span>
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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(22, 235, 183)" title="philliptrudeau#8865" data-user-id="335466817910996992">philliptrudeau</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 12:27 PM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Some handmade software you can build “from scraps” instead of from scratch, where you judiciously and carefully adopt complexity where you want/need it (handmade libraries help a lot there)</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(155, 89, 182)" title="abnercoimbre#4546" data-user-id="754449440483311728">Abner Coimbre</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 12:30 PM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I love this, except "from scraps" sounds pretty bad from a marketing perspective!</span>

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                                <span class="chatlog__reaction-count">1</span>
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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025852301015011480" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025852301015011480">
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                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 12:30 PM">12:30</div>
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            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">cc <span class="chatlog__markdown-mention" title="bvisness#0001">@bvisness</span> let's think of a new term, but the idea is solid</span>

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                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/1963eacbf364164efce1c597dc66aeab-E6901.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="bvisness#0001" data-user-id="132715550571888640">bvisness</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 12:31 PM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">from hand</span>

                    </div>




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                            <div class="chatlog__reaction" title="AbnerHangry">
                                <img class="chatlog__emoji chatlog__emoji--small" alt="AbnerHangry" src="files/777941313546092555-41FE8.png" loading="lazy">
                                <span class="chatlog__reaction-count">2</span>
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                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/e5e2a49a0e3cc3c43b4b79168dcb4da1-B0325.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="Allen4th#9584" data-user-id="273134589000810496">Allen4th</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 12:31 PM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Isn't "Handmade" already the better spin on "from scraps"?</span>

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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025852604485476454" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025852604485476454">
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                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/cbdd38f420dd16b5f8a79b9aefd66692-078C7.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(22, 235, 183)" title="philliptrudeau#8865" data-user-id="335466817910996992">philliptrudeau</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 12:32 PM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">True, although handmade connotes from-scratch, historically</span>

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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025852729198903306" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025852729198903306">
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                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 12:32 PM">12:32</div>
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Due to HMH going so fundamental, and a lot of HMN projects going pretty deep</span>

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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025853648816849059" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025853648816849059">
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                                <img class="chatlog__reference-avatar" src="files/7d1e6c8c57dd77a1fa0f2d843fd66cc5-4208E.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(155, 89, 182)" title="abnercoimbre#4546">Abner Coimbre</div>
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-content">
                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '1025850944916824174')">
So you don't build everything from scratch with WhiteBox? Only parts you consider to be core to the main selling point?                                    </span>

                                </div>
                        </div>
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="azmr#4870" data-user-id="240986595749134336">Andrew (azmr)</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 12:36 PM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">ha, well... just having a look at our list of submodules:
- a bunch of internal things that got pulled out
- <a class="inserted-after" href="https://github.com/ocornut/imgui" target="_blank">Dear Imgui</a> - very useful for bootstrapping UI, although we may end up doing our own at some point
- <span class="chatlog__markdown-mention" title="herose#1149">@herose</span>'s <a class="inserted-after" href="https://github.com/heroseh/cmd_arger" target="_blank">command-line argument parser</a>
- <a class="inserted-after" href="https://github.com/sheredom/json.h" target="_blank">sheredom/json.h</a> - we only use small quantities of JSON, this is a good simple library and it's not worth my time to make a custom one
- mattiasgustavsson's <a class="inserted-after" href="https://github.com/mattiasgustavsson/libs/blob/main/docs/thread.md" target="_blank">thread library</a> (good bootstrap, may change)
- <a class="inserted-after" href="https://github.com/nothings/stb" target="_blank">stb</a> (enough said)
- <a class="inserted-after" href="https://sourceforge.net/projects/tinyfiledialogs/" target="_blank">tinyfiledialogs</a> - a useful OS-agnostic bootstrap, may change
- <a class="inserted-after" href="https://www.sqlite.org/index.html" target="_blank">SQLite</a> - Dan Luu's article on file writing freaked me out a bit and I wanted to make sure we had something that worked reliably
- <a class="inserted-after" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LLVM" target="_blank">LLVM</a> &amp; <a class="inserted-after" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clang" target="_blank">Clang</a> - core to the tool, but writing a <em>better</em> full C++ compiler is not really feasible for me... and even if it was we'd have to replicate Clang's functionality</span>

                    </div>




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                            <div class="chatlog__reaction" title="point_up_tone1">
                                <img class="chatlog__emoji chatlog__emoji--small" alt="☝🏻" src="files/261d-1f3fb-EBBA6.svg" loading="lazy">
                                <span class="chatlog__reaction-count">1</span>
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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="JangaFX#1318" data-user-id="218509869282492416">Nick Seavert - JangaFX</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 12:36 PM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Wanna buy a license to our UI? <img loading="lazy" class="chatlog__emoji " alt="😉" title="wink" src="files/twemoji_1f609.svg"></span>

                    </div>




                    <div class="chatlog__reactions">
                            <div class="chatlog__reaction" title="flushed">
                                <img class="chatlog__emoji chatlog__emoji--small" alt="😳" src="files/1f633-6B0E7.svg" loading="lazy">
                                <span class="chatlog__reaction-count">2</span>
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                                <img class="chatlog__emoji chatlog__emoji--small" alt="😁" src="files/1f601-4D80E.svg" loading="lazy">
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                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/ac726b5857221d734c474b9280b0f2ae-EC09E.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="vassvik#0798" data-user-id="132475694293843968">mv</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 12:36 PM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">xD</span>

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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025853965834932337" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025853965834932337">
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                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 12:37 PM">12:37</div>
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">UI is like 80% of the work</span>

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        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/c72723180bf059e8dbc35e6eaf9e0fa1-1FB1F.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="azmr#4870" data-user-id="240986595749134336">Andrew (azmr)</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 12:37 PM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">the third 80%</span>

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                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/ac726b5857221d734c474b9280b0f2ae-EC09E.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
            </div>

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                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="vassvik#0798" data-user-id="132475694293843968">mv</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 12:37 PM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">yeah</span>

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                        <div class="chatlog__reference">
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                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="azmr#4870">Andrew (azmr)</div>
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-content">
                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '1025853648816849059')">
ha, well... just having a look at our list of submodules:
- a bunch of internal things that got pulled out
- Dear Imgui - very useful for bootstrapping UI, although we may end up doing our own at some point
- <span class="chatlog__markdown-mention" title="herose#1149">@herose</span>'s command-line argument parser
- <span class="chatlog__markdown-pre chatlog__markdown-pre--inline">sheredom/json.h</span> - we only use small quantities of JSON, this is a good simple library and it's not worth my time to make a custom one
- mattiasgustavsson's thread library (good bootstrap, may change)
- stb (enough said)
- <span class="chatlog__markdown-pre chatlog__markdown-pre--inline">tinyfiledialogs</span> - a useful OS-agnostic bootstrap, may change
- SQLite - Dan Luu's article on file writing freaked me out a bit and I wanted to make sure we had something that worked reliably
- LLVM &amp; Clang - core to the tool, but writing a <em>better</em> full C++ compiler is not really feasible for me... and even if it was we'd have to replicate Clang's functionality                                    </span>

                                </div>
                        </div>
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(155, 89, 182)" title="abnercoimbre#4546" data-user-id="754449440483311728">Abner Coimbre</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 12:42 PM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Here's mine for Terminal Click:
- <span class="chatlog__markdown-mention" title="rxi#5759">@rxi</span>'s <a class="inserted-after" href="https://github.com/rxi/microui" target="_blank">microui</a> - Heavily extended.
- <span class="chatlog__markdown-pre chatlog__markdown-pre--inline">microui_sokol.h</span> - My sokol gfx renderer for microui. This is what lets me compile down to Metal, DirectX, etc.
- Sokol (obviously)
- stb (enough said)
- <span class="chatlog__markdown-mention" title="Allen4th#9584">@Allen4th</span>'s <a class="inserted-after" href="https://github.com/Mr-4th-Programming/mr4th" target="_blank">OS platform layer</a>. I extended it to support terminal operations.
- <a class="inserted-after" href="https://zig.news/kristoff/compile-a-c-c-project-with-zig-368j" target="_blank">zig build</a> - Used as a drop-in C/ C++ compiler</span>

                            <span class="chatlog__edited-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 12:44 PM">(edited)</span>
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                            <div class="chatlog__reaction" title="thumbsup">
                                <img class="chatlog__emoji chatlog__emoji--small" alt="👍" src="files/1f44d-B3F5F.svg" loading="lazy">
                                <span class="chatlog__reaction-count">1</span>
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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="JangaFX#1318" data-user-id="218509869282492416">Nick Seavert - JangaFX</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 12:43 PM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Thank god we hired RXI</span>

                    </div>




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                            <div class="chatlog__reaction" title="point_up">
                                <img class="chatlog__emoji chatlog__emoji--small" alt="☝️" src="files/261d-3A498.svg" loading="lazy">
                                <span class="chatlog__reaction-count">4</span>
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                            <div class="chatlog__reaction" title="100">
                                <img class="chatlog__emoji chatlog__emoji--small" alt="💯" src="files/1f4af-2188D.svg" loading="lazy">
                                <span class="chatlog__reaction-count">4</span>
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                                <span class="chatlog__reaction-count">4</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 12:43 PM">12:43</div>
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            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Sorry, you guys will have to find someone else for your UI needs</span>

                    </div>




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                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="" title="JangaFX#1318">Nick Seavert - JangaFX</div>
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                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '1025855378694606898')">
Thank god we hired RXI                                    </span>

                                </div>
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                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 12:45 PM</span>
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                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="azmr#4870">Andrew (azmr)</div>
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-content">
                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '1025850564648636436')">
on the assumption that people here err towards doing things themselves... I think it's worth paying attention to which components of your product are core to its main selling point and strongly considering using pre-existing components for everything else                                    </span>

                                        <span class="chatlog__reference-edited-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 12:24 PM">(edited)</span>
                                </div>
                        </div>
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="Allen4th#9584" data-user-id="273134589000810496">Allen4th</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 12:30 PM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I think this is the primary tension between handmade and doing business (at least in the for-profit way). If I have a product that I want to ship and I'm willing to go with "good enough" here and "good enough" there to get it done, I have a better chance of ending up with a successful product on time. But if I want to chase down every opportunity to make better components, I could be making it possible for better products to exist in the future, but have a much harder time making that a traditional for-profit business. What does everyone think about this?</span>

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                            <div class="chatlog__reaction" title="point_up_tone1">
                                <img class="chatlog__emoji chatlog__emoji--small" alt="☝🏻" src="files/261d-1f3fb-EBBA6.svg" loading="lazy">
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                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="JangaFX#1318" data-user-id="218509869282492416">Nick Seavert - JangaFX</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 12:31 PM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Obligatory there's nothing wrong about generalized capitalism and making money.</span>

                    </div>




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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025852781682245803" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025852781682245803">
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                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/e5e2a49a0e3cc3c43b4b79168dcb4da1-B0325.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="Allen4th#9584" data-user-id="273134589000810496">Allen4th</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 12:32 PM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I don't think there's anything wrong with making money! I just wish I could make money chasing down the things that I think would be most beneficial, which I often don't see in alignment with making money. (and I know saying that makes me a bad capitalist)</span>

                    </div>




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                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/ac726b5857221d734c474b9280b0f2ae-EC09E.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="vassvik#0798" data-user-id="132475694293843968">mv</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 12:33 PM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">You need to make enough money</span>

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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025852907523952730" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025852907523952730">
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            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/7d1e6c8c57dd77a1fa0f2d843fd66cc5-4208E.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(155, 89, 182)" title="abnercoimbre#4546" data-user-id="754449440483311728">Abner Coimbre</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 12:33 PM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">We keep forgetting greed is a real thing</span>

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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025852922145288212" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025852922145288212">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 12:33 PM">12:33</div>
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            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">and a vice</span>

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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025853013442703473" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025853013442703473">
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            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 12:33 PM">12:33</div>
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">and a huge reason we're in this mess in the tech industry</span>

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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025853240962723931" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025853240962723931">
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            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 12:34 PM">12:34</div>
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            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Now that I hang out with other organizers, they think I'm dumb for not getting "free" $20k bags of money from Sony</span>

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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025853268603191397" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025853268603191397">
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                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/500a026bbe575d128b125d0cf0651a26-22B85.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="JangaFX#1318" data-user-id="218509869282492416">Nick Seavert - JangaFX</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 12:34 PM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Money from a whitehat source is proof that you helped your fellow person</span>

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                                <img class="chatlog__reference-avatar" src="files/e5e2a49a0e3cc3c43b4b79168dcb4da1-B0325.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="Allen4th#9584">Allen4th</div>
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-content">
                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '1025852781682245803')">
I don't think there's anything wrong with making money! I just wish I could make money chasing down the things that I think would be most beneficial, which I often don't see in alignment with making money. (and I know saying that makes me a bad capitalist)                                    </span>

                                </div>
                        </div>
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 12:34 PM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">the problem is that if other people don't see the things as valuable, it can't be a business :)</span>

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                                <img class="chatlog__reference-avatar" src="files/e5e2a49a0e3cc3c43b4b79168dcb4da1-B0325.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="Allen4th#9584">Allen4th</div>
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-content">
                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '1025852104251809882')">
I think this is the primary tension between handmade and doing business (at least in the for-profit way). If I have a product that I want to ship and I'm willing to go with "good enough" here and "good enough" there to get it done, I have a better chance of ending up with a successful product on time. But if I want to chase down every opportunity to make better components, I could be making it possible for better products to exist in the future, but have a much harder time making that a traditional for-profit business. What does everyone think about this?                                    </span>

                                </div>
                        </div>
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(22, 235, 183)" title="philliptrudeau#8865" data-user-id="335466817910996992">philliptrudeau</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 12:35 PM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">This is a really important question. Working on Happenlance, we thought <a class="inserted-after" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Box2D" target="_blank">Box2D</a> would be “good enough”, but once we built out <a class="inserted-after" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netcode#Rollback" target="_blank">rollback netcode</a>, box2d fell apart in multiple ways, and took huge engineering effort to fit to our needs. And that’s actually to do with product success directly, let alone the higher ideals! How do we set up components that help the business’s success long-term?</span>

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            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="Allen4th#9584" data-user-id="273134589000810496">Allen4th</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 12:36 PM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Yes I understand that's the problem! The question is if the motivation is to do the project, rather than to be a business, how do I move forward? How do I use entrepreneurship as a means rather than as the end?</span>

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                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/1963eacbf364164efce1c597dc66aeab-E6901.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="bvisness#0001" data-user-id="132715550571888640">bvisness</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 12:38 PM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I really wonder if it's reasonable to expect the technical things like you're working on to ever be a serious business model on their own</span>

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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025854397542060033" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025854397542060033">
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            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 12:39 PM">12:39</div>
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            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">patreon and friends really don't seem to cut it</span>

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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025854449975033916" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025854449975033916">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 12:39 PM">12:39</div>
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            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">obviously I'd love for HMN to help fund such things, but that's just more patreon</span>

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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025854484376727684" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025854484376727684">
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                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/1963eacbf364164efce1c597dc66aeab-E6901.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="bvisness#0001" data-user-id="132715550571888640">bvisness</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 12:39 PM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">and it will take us a while to get there</span>

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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025854479901392926" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025854479901392926">
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            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                        <div class="chatlog__reference">
                                <img class="chatlog__reference-avatar" src="files/e5e2a49a0e3cc3c43b4b79168dcb4da1-B0325.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="Allen4th#9584">Allen4th</div>
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-content">
                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '1025853618961797241')">
Yes I understand that's the problem! The question is if the motivation is to do the project, rather than to be a business, how do I move forward? How do I use entrepreneurship as a means rather than as the end?                                    </span>

                                </div>
                        </div>
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 12:39 PM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">then you sell your brand</span>

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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025854533823381544" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025854533823381544">
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                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/89747c254631bcfd05c5c3e7141389aa-A1FB9.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 12:39 PM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">people can value your brand while not valuing your specific technical thing</span>

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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025854596012310608" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025854596012310608">
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                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 12:39 PM">12:39</div>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">if people don't like your technical thing, and don't like your brand, then you don't deserve their money</span>

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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025854605344641044" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025854605344641044">
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            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 12:39 PM">12:39</div>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">simple as</span>

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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025854696704970893" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025854696704970893">
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                                <img class="chatlog__reference-avatar" src="files/1963eacbf364164efce1c597dc66aeab-E6901.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="bvisness#0001">bvisness</div>
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-content">
                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '1025854327400710275')">
I really wonder if it's reasonable to expect the technical things like you're working on to ever be a serious business model on their own                                    </span>

                                </div>
                        </div>
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="Allen4th#9584" data-user-id="273134589000810496">Allen4th</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 12:40 PM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I do too. That's why I'm asking. Applying handmade as a way to make a better business seems to work (JangaFX case in point). What I'm trying to pivot to is can I use the skills of an entrepreneur in any way to make better handmade passion projects?</span>

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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025854888556630056" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025854888556630056">
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                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/500a026bbe575d128b125d0cf0651a26-22B85.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="JangaFX#1318" data-user-id="218509869282492416">Nick Seavert - JangaFX</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 12:41 PM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">If its valuable, you can make anything a better project</span>

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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025854951471186022" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025854951471186022">
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                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 12:41 PM">12:41</div>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">assuming better and valuable returns money</span>

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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025855132409282560" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025855132409282560">
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            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 12:42 PM">12:42</div>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Let me write out what little programming i know
<span class="chatlog__markdown-pre chatlog__markdown-pre--inline">if value &gt; 9999 {
return lotsofmoney
}</span></span>

                            <span class="chatlog__edited-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 12:42 PM">(edited)</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(22, 235, 183)" title="philliptrudeau#8865" data-user-id="335466817910996992">philliptrudeau</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 12:42 PM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Excellent question. “<a class="inserted-after" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diversification_(finance)" target="_blank">Diversify</a> your <a class="inserted-after" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revenue_stream" target="_blank">revenue streams</a>” is the only answer I’ve heard, and it’s not a great one! Patreon, kickstarter, publisher, gov’t grants, YouTube, Twitch, etc… it’s a daunting amount of work.</span>

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                        <div class="chatlog__reference-symbol"></div>
                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/1963eacbf364164efce1c597dc66aeab-E6901.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                        <div class="chatlog__reference">
                                <img class="chatlog__reference-avatar" src="files/89747c254631bcfd05c5c3e7141389aa-A1FB9.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588">demetrispanos</div>
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-content">
                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '1025854479901392926')">
then you sell your brand                                    </span>

                                </div>
                        </div>
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="bvisness#0001" data-user-id="132715550571888640">bvisness</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 12:44 PM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">what might a "brand" look like in this context? I don't really follow</span>

                    </div>




            </div>
        </div>
    </div>
</div>



<div class="chatlog__message-group">
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025855881738473574" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025855881738473574">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/500a026bbe575d128b125d0cf0651a26-22B85.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="JangaFX#1318" data-user-id="218509869282492416">Nick Seavert - JangaFX</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 12:45 PM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">You</span>

                    </div>




            </div>
        </div>
    </div>
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025855927775146068" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025855927775146068">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 12:45 PM">12:45</div>
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Think <a class="inserted-after" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Carmack" target="_blank">John Carmack</a></span>

                    </div>




            </div>
        </div>
    </div>
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025855936465739836" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025855936465739836">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 12:45 PM">12:45</div>
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">or <a class="inserted-after" href="https://iquilezles.org/" target="_blank">Inigo Quilez</a></span>

                    </div>




            </div>
        </div>
    </div>
</div>



<div class="chatlog__message-group">
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025855951540072539" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025855951540072539">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/1963eacbf364164efce1c597dc66aeab-E6901.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="bvisness#0001" data-user-id="132715550571888640">bvisness</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 12:45 PM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">okay, fair</span>

                    </div>




            </div>
        </div>
    </div>
</div>







<div class="chatlog__message-group">
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025856061955121203" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025856061955121203">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                        <div class="chatlog__reference-symbol"></div>
                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/cbdd38f420dd16b5f8a79b9aefd66692-078C7.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                        <div class="chatlog__reference">
                                <img class="chatlog__reference-avatar" src="files/1963eacbf364164efce1c597dc66aeab-E6901.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="bvisness#0001">bvisness</div>
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-content">
                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '1025855847722663976')">
what might a "brand" look like in this context? I don't really follow                                    </span>

                                </div>
                        </div>
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(22, 235, 183)" title="philliptrudeau#8865" data-user-id="335466817910996992">philliptrudeau</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 12:45 PM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Establish itself as a person whom others value. Content creator/niche microcelebrity/etc. It’s a big responsibility</span>

                    </div>




            </div>
        </div>
    </div>
</div>



<div class="chatlog__message-group">
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025856146034135070" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025856146034135070">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/1963eacbf364164efce1c597dc66aeab-E6901.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="bvisness#0001" data-user-id="132715550571888640">bvisness</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 12:46 PM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">gonna be the next <a class="inserted-after" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_C._Martin" target="_blank">uncle bob</a> or whatever</span>

                    </div>




            </div>
        </div>
    </div>
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025856188216246373" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025856188216246373">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 12:46 PM">12:46</div>
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Allen is, I mean &gt;:)</span>

                    </div>




            </div>
        </div>
    </div>
</div>



<div class="chatlog__message-group">
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025856244210212934" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025856244210212934">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                        <div class="chatlog__reference-symbol"></div>
                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/89747c254631bcfd05c5c3e7141389aa-A1FB9.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                        <div class="chatlog__reference">
                                <img class="chatlog__reference-avatar" src="files/1963eacbf364164efce1c597dc66aeab-E6901.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="bvisness#0001">bvisness</div>
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-content">
                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '1025855847722663976')">
what might a "brand" look like in this context? I don't really follow                                    </span>

                                </div>
                        </div>
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 12:46 PM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">a practical definition of a brand is all the expectations and values people associate with you, so e.g. with Allen perhaps good programming and working on tools</span>

                    </div>




            </div>
        </div>
    </div>
</div>



<div class="chatlog__message-group" style="">
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025856247230124062" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025856247230124062">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/ac726b5857221d734c474b9280b0f2ae-EC09E.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="vassvik#0798" data-user-id="132475694293843968">mv</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 12:46 PM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">is that a good thing</span>

                    </div>




            </div>
        </div>
    </div>
</div><div class="chatlog__message-group" style="">
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025856330029862992" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025856330029862992">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/ac726b5857221d734c474b9280b0f2ae-EC09E.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="vassvik#0798" data-user-id="132475694293843968">mv</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 12:46 PM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">lots of people with brands that don't sell very well too</span>

                    </div>




            </div>
        </div>
    </div>
</div><div class="chatlog__message-group" style="">
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025856378792837162" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025856378792837162">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/89747c254631bcfd05c5c3e7141389aa-A1FB9.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 12:47 PM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">people who value allen's brand may be willing to give allen money to be allen</span>

                    </div>




                    <div class="chatlog__reactions">
                            <div class="chatlog__reaction" title="point_up_tone1">
                                <img class="chatlog__emoji chatlog__emoji--small" alt="☝🏻" src="files/261d-1f3fb-EBBA6.svg" loading="lazy">
                                <span class="chatlog__reaction-count">1</span>
                            </div>
                    </div>
            </div>
        </div>
    </div>
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025856394768961776" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025856394768961776">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 12:47 PM">12:47</div>
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">even if they never benefit from his work</span>

                    </div>




            </div>
        </div>
    </div>
</div>



<div class="chatlog__message-group" style="">
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025856336572981248" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025856336572981248">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/500a026bbe575d128b125d0cf0651a26-22B85.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="JangaFX#1318" data-user-id="218509869282492416">Nick Seavert - JangaFX</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 12:46 PM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I think part of JangaFX' success is that its tied a bit to me as its face/brand leader thing</span>

                    </div>




            </div>
        </div>
    </div>
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025856371721240707" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025856371721240707">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 12:46 PM">12:46</div>
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve"><a class="inserted-after" href="https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtRjzr2QlxJcoQQ2c74dJpw/search?query=stream" target="_blank">Live streams</a>, etc</span>

                    </div>




            </div>
        </div>
    </div>
</div><div class="chatlog__message-group" style="">
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025856442839875644" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025856442839875644">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                        <div class="chatlog__reference-symbol"></div>
                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/ac726b5857221d734c474b9280b0f2ae-EC09E.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                        <div class="chatlog__reference">
                                <img class="chatlog__reference-avatar" src="files/500a026bbe575d128b125d0cf0651a26-22B85.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="" title="JangaFX#1318">Nick Seavert - JangaFX</div>
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-content">
                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '1025856336572981248')">
I think part of JangaFX' success is that its tied a bit to me as its face/brand leader thing                                    </span>

                                </div>
                        </div>
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="vassvik#0798" data-user-id="132475694293843968">mv</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 12:47 PM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">you changed your handle for this event didn't you xD</span>

                    </div>




            </div>
        </div>
    </div>
</div><div class="chatlog__message-group" style="">
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025856501778231306" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025856501778231306">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/500a026bbe575d128b125d0cf0651a26-22B85.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="JangaFX#1318" data-user-id="218509869282492416">Nick Seavert - JangaFX</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 12:47 PM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Yes</span>

                    </div>




            </div>
        </div>
    </div>
</div><div class="chatlog__message-group" style="">
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025856570438995968" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025856570438995968">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/ac726b5857221d734c474b9280b0f2ae-EC09E.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="vassvik#0798" data-user-id="132475694293843968">mv</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 12:47 PM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">what happened to separate business from personal stuff <img loading="lazy" class="chatlog__emoji " alt="😛" title="stuck_out_tongue" src="files/twemoji_1f61b.svg"></span>

                    </div>




                    <div class="chatlog__reactions">
                            <div class="chatlog__reaction" title="joy">
                                <img class="chatlog__emoji chatlog__emoji--small" alt="😂" src="files/1f602-20224.svg" loading="lazy">
                                <span class="chatlog__reaction-count">1</span>
                            </div>
                    </div>
            </div>
        </div>
    </div>
</div><div class="chatlog__message-group" style="">
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025856635433926826" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025856635433926826">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/500a026bbe575d128b125d0cf0651a26-22B85.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="JangaFX#1318" data-user-id="218509869282492416">Nick Seavert - JangaFX</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 12:48 PM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">This is business <img loading="lazy" class="chatlog__emoji " alt="😄" title="smile" src="files/twemoji_1f604.svg"></span>

                    </div>




            </div>
        </div>
    </div>
</div><div class="chatlog__message-group">
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025856289294782542" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025856289294782542">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/cbdd38f420dd16b5f8a79b9aefd66692-078C7.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(22, 235, 183)" title="philliptrudeau#8865" data-user-id="335466817910996992">philliptrudeau</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 12:46 PM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I think <a class="inserted-after" href="https://randy.gg/" target="_blank">Randy</a> set himself up very well to do that! It can be very compelling when done right.</span>

                    </div>




            </div>
        </div>
    </div>
</div>



<div class="chatlog__message-group">
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025856308013965402" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025856308013965402">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/7d1e6c8c57dd77a1fa0f2d843fd66cc5-4208E.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(155, 89, 182)" title="abnercoimbre#4546" data-user-id="754449440483311728">Abner Coimbre</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 12:46 PM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Being a content creator is almost a full-time job. I interviewed Randy recently (Professor Rework) and he burned out even though he amassed ~300k YouTube subscribers and could make videos that pulled in 1.1M views</span>

                    </div>




                    <div class="chatlog__reactions">
                            <div class="chatlog__reaction" title="point_up_tone1">
                                <img class="chatlog__emoji chatlog__emoji--small" alt="☝🏻" src="files/261d-1f3fb-EBBA6.svg" loading="lazy">
                                <span class="chatlog__reaction-count">1</span>
                            </div>
                    </div>
            </div>
        </div>
    </div>
</div>































<div class="chatlog__message-group">
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025856636318912615" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025856636318912615">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/7d1e6c8c57dd77a1fa0f2d843fd66cc5-4208E.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(155, 89, 182)" title="abnercoimbre#4546" data-user-id="754449440483311728">Abner Coimbre</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 12:48 PM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">He even admitted that making videos about a feature he added <em>took significantly longer</em> than actually adding that feature.</span>

                    </div>




            </div>
        </div>
    </div>
</div>



<div class="chatlog__message-group" style="">
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025856787007684768" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025856787007684768">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/7d1e6c8c57dd77a1fa0f2d843fd66cc5-4208E.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(155, 89, 182)" title="abnercoimbre#4546" data-user-id="754449440483311728">Abner Coimbre</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 12:48 PM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">So this is a legitimate concern. Not trying to say <span class="chatlog__markdown-mention" title="Allen4th#9584">@Allen4th</span> shouldn't try being a content creator celebrity, but clearly there's a danger to be aware of here</span>

                    </div>




                    <div class="chatlog__reactions">
                            <div class="chatlog__reaction" title="point_up_tone1">
                                <img class="chatlog__emoji chatlog__emoji--small" alt="☝🏻" src="files/261d-1f3fb-EBBA6.svg" loading="lazy">
                                <span class="chatlog__reaction-count">1</span>
                            </div>
                    </div>
            </div>
        </div>
    </div>
</div><div class="chatlog__message-group">
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025856773392957541" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025856773392957541">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/cbdd38f420dd16b5f8a79b9aefd66692-078C7.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(22, 235, 183)" title="philliptrudeau#8865" data-user-id="335466817910996992">philliptrudeau</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 12:48 PM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Straddling the product-builder/content-creator line is the hardest needle to thread that I know of</span>

                    </div>




            </div>
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    </div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-group" style="">
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025857354283102258" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025857354283102258">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/cbdd38f420dd16b5f8a79b9aefd66692-078C7.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(22, 235, 183)" title="philliptrudeau#8865" data-user-id="335466817910996992">philliptrudeau</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 12:50 PM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I streamed 50 hours a week working on my game, and it's one of the major reasons it got the attention it got early on.</span>

                    </div>




            </div>
        </div>
    </div>
</div><div class="chatlog__message-group" style="">
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025857432192295006" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025857432192295006">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/cbdd38f420dd16b5f8a79b9aefd66692-078C7.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(22, 235, 183)" title="philliptrudeau#8865" data-user-id="335466817910996992">philliptrudeau</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 12:51 PM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">If I had to throw regular Youtube videos in the mix, that would have been crazy.</span>

                    </div>




            </div>
        </div>
    </div>
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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025856823074508900" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025856823074508900">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                        <div class="chatlog__reference-symbol"></div>
                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/ac726b5857221d734c474b9280b0f2ae-EC09E.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                        <div class="chatlog__reference">
                                <img class="chatlog__reference-avatar" src="files/89747c254631bcfd05c5c3e7141389aa-A1FB9.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588">demetrispanos</div>
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-content">
                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '1025856378792837162')">
people who value allen's brand may be willing to give allen money to be allen                                    </span>

                                </div>
                        </div>
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="vassvik#0798" data-user-id="132475694293843968">mv</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 12:48 PM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">at what scale though. there's not really enough of an infrastructure and "userbase" to support something like that to a meaningful degree is there? unless you're doing Renderdoc or dear imgui or something - already bankrolled by big companies to some extent</span>

                            <span class="chatlog__edited-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 12:49 PM">(edited)</span>
                    </div>




            </div>
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    </div>
</div>



<div class="chatlog__message-group">
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025856953114701874" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025856953114701874">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/89747c254631bcfd05c5c3e7141389aa-A1FB9.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 12:49 PM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">well, there was that <a class="inserted-after" href="https://www.patreon.com/sonicether" target="_blank">minecraft shaders guy</a> for example</span>

                    </div>




            </div>
        </div>
    </div>
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025856988636270692" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025856988636270692">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 12:49 PM">12:49</div>
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">but I agree it's hard</span>

                    </div>




            </div>
        </div>
    </div>
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025857031816613978" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025857031816613978">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 12:49 PM">12:49</div>
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">because making a brand is work</span>

                    </div>




            </div>
        </div>
    </div>
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025857063622017114" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025857063622017114">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 12:49 PM">12:49</div>
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">and it's work that technical people on average aren't primed to do</span>

                    </div>




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    </div>
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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025856816162275368" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025856816162275368">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                        <div class="chatlog__reference-symbol"></div>
                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/0be34eb37a223ff9b4c6214888310d87-1F0CE.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                        <div class="chatlog__reference">
                                <img class="chatlog__reference-avatar" src="files/e5e2a49a0e3cc3c43b4b79168dcb4da1-B0325.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="Allen4th#9584">Allen4th</div>
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-content">
                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '1025854696704970893')">
I do to. That's why I'm asking. Applying handmade as a way to make a better business seems to work (JengaFX case in point). What I'm trying to pivot to is can I use the skills of an entrepreneur in any way to make better handmade passion projects?                                    </span>

                                </div>
                        </div>
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="Zeanith#5921" data-user-id="90567213731303424">Zeanith</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 12:48 PM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I believe this is what <span class="chatlog__markdown-mention" title="JangaFX#1318">@Nick Seavert - JangaFX</span> mentioned about the "other half" of the problem. One needs to market, promote, have an ego if you will about your passion project publicly. Clearly state the value proposition and demonstrate it. I'm curious how JangaFX went from zero to one. It was basically a passion project with the beginning $300. Who was the first customer and how did you attract them?</span>

                    </div>




            </div>
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    </div>
</div>



<div class="chatlog__message-group">
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025857169532407838" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025857169532407838">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/500a026bbe575d128b125d0cf0651a26-22B85.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="JangaFX#1318" data-user-id="218509869282492416">Nick Seavert - JangaFX</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 12:50 PM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">First customer was a guy who randomly saw my youtube video of a crappy vector field editor i'd made myself</span>

                    </div>




            </div>
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    </div>
</div>



<div class="chatlog__message-group">
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025857174280347808" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025857174280347808">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/89747c254631bcfd05c5c3e7141389aa-A1FB9.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 12:50 PM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">no one said this would be easy :P</span>

                    </div>




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<div class="chatlog__message-group">
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025857210217144380" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025857210217144380">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/ac726b5857221d734c474b9280b0f2ae-EC09E.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="vassvik#0798" data-user-id="132475694293843968">mv</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 12:50 PM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">crappy, heh</span>

                    </div>




            </div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-group">
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025857218282795048" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025857218282795048">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/89747c254631bcfd05c5c3e7141389aa-A1FB9.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 12:50 PM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">if you want easy go work for <s>FAANG</s> MAANG</span>

                            <span class="chatlog__edited-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 12:50 PM">(edited)</span>
                    </div>




            </div>
        </div>
    </div>
</div>



<div class="chatlog__message-group">
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025857229770985662" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025857229770985662">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                        <div class="chatlog__reference-symbol"></div>
                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/0be34eb37a223ff9b4c6214888310d87-1F0CE.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                        <div class="chatlog__reference">
                                <img class="chatlog__reference-avatar" src="files/500a026bbe575d128b125d0cf0651a26-22B85.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="" title="JangaFX#1318">Nick Seavert - JangaFX</div>
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-content">
                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '1025857169532407838')">
First customer was a guy who randomly saw my youtube video of a crappy vector field editor i'd made myself                                    </span>

                                </div>
                        </div>
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="Zeanith#5921" data-user-id="90567213731303424">Zeanith</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 12:50 PM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">there we go</span>

                    </div>




            </div>
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    </div>
</div><div class="chatlog__message-group" style="">
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025857295483162665" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025857295483162665">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/500a026bbe575d128b125d0cf0651a26-22B85.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="JangaFX#1318" data-user-id="218509869282492416">Nick Seavert - JangaFX</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 12:50 PM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">First customer for EmberGen was a large studio that pre-ordered a few days before we actually released</span>

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<div class="chatlog__message-group">
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025857425221365832" class="chatlog__message-container" data-message-id="1025857425221365832">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/500a026bbe575d128b125d0cf0651a26-22B85.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="JangaFX#1318" data-user-id="218509869282492416">Nick Seavert - JangaFX</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 12:51 PM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Building our email list was so, so integral to our success</span>

                    </div>




                    <div class="chatlog__reactions">
                            <div class="chatlog__reaction" title="point_up_tone1">
                                <img class="chatlog__emoji chatlog__emoji--small" alt="☝🏻" src="files/261d-1f3fb-EBBA6.svg" loading="lazy">
                                <span class="chatlog__reaction-count">1</span>
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</div>







<div class="chatlog__message-group">
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025857537750343680" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025857537750343680">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/500a026bbe575d128b125d0cf0651a26-22B85.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="JangaFX#1318" data-user-id="218509869282492416">Nick Seavert - JangaFX</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 12:51 PM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Just aim for making like $100 at first</span>

                    </div>




            </div>
        </div>
    </div>
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025857566057713685" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025857566057713685">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 12:51 PM">12:51</div>
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Then you can aim for \$1k, then \$10k, then 100k etc</span>

                    </div>




            </div>
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    </div>
</div>



<div class="chatlog__message-group">
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025857576983867482" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025857576983867482">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                        <div class="chatlog__reference-symbol"></div>
                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/89747c254631bcfd05c5c3e7141389aa-A1FB9.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                        <div class="chatlog__reference">
                                <img class="chatlog__reference-avatar" src="files/500a026bbe575d128b125d0cf0651a26-22B85.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="" title="JangaFX#1318">Nick Seavert - JangaFX</div>
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-content">
                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '1025857425221365832')">
Building our email list was so, so integral to our success                                    </span>

                                </div>
                        </div>
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 12:51 PM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">may I suggest (hat tip to my friend <span class="chatlog__markdown-mention" title="simp#6533">@simp</span>) zukowski's series on <a class="inserted-after" href="https://howtomarketagame.com/" target="_blank">how to market a game</a>, which is actually generally applicable</span>

                            <span class="chatlog__edited-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 12:52 PM">(edited)</span>
                    </div>




            </div>
        </div>
    </div>
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025857641106382900" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025857641106382900">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 12:52 PM">12:52</div>
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">zukowski also has a discord</span>

                    </div>




            </div>
        </div>
    </div>
</div>



<div class="chatlog__message-group">
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025857699298156605" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025857699298156605">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/cbdd38f420dd16b5f8a79b9aefd66692-078C7.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(22, 235, 183)" title="philliptrudeau#8865" data-user-id="335466817910996992">philliptrudeau</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 12:52 PM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve"><img loading="lazy" class="chatlog__emoji " alt="☝" title="☝" src="files/twemoji_261d.svg"> We followed this model closely for Happenlance starting out.</span>

                    </div>




            </div>
        </div>
    </div>
</div>
<div class="chatlog__message-group" style="">
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025858162781327500" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025858162781327500">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                        <div class="chatlog__reference-symbol"></div>
                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/e5e2a49a0e3cc3c43b4b79168dcb4da1-B0325.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                        <div class="chatlog__reference">
                                <img class="chatlog__reference-avatar" src="files/500a026bbe575d128b125d0cf0651a26-22B85.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="" title="JangaFX#1318">Nick Seavert - JangaFX</div>
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-content">
                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '1025857425221365832')">
Building our email list was so, so integral to our success                                    </span>

                                </div>
                        </div>
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="Allen4th#9584" data-user-id="273134589000810496">Allen4th</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 12:54 PM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Can you elaborate on what this means? I hear people say it a lot. What's an email list, how do you build it, and what does it do for you?</span>

                    </div>




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                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/89747c254631bcfd05c5c3e7141389aa-A1FB9.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 12:54 PM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">you need zukowski's (free) <a class="inserted-after" href="https://howtomarketagame.com/2017/11/29/email-marketing-101-how-to-actually-use-your-mailing-list/" target="_blank">introduction</a></span>

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                                <img class="chatlog__emoji chatlog__emoji--small" alt="👍" src="files/1f44d-B3F5F.svg" loading="lazy">
                                <span class="chatlog__reaction-count">1</span>
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                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/4e706b8c4b5b0208cb859dc28d298ab7-74B28.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="simp#6533" data-user-id="130979493027250176">simp (audience)</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 12:58 PM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Re zukowski</span>

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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025859339585585252" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025859339585585252">
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                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 12:58 PM">12:58</div>
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            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve"><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZ5H6DeaKKs">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZ5H6DeaKKs</a></span>

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                        <div class="chatlog__embed">
                                <div class="chatlog__embed-color-pill" style="background-color: rgba(255, 0, 0, 255)"></div>

                            <div class="chatlog__embed-content-container">
                                <div class="chatlog__embed-content">
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                                            <div class="chatlog__embed-author-container">

                                                        <a class="chatlog__embed-author-link" href="https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC0JB7TSe49lg56u6qH8y_MQ">
                                                            <div class="chatlog__embed-author">GDC</div>
                                                        </a>
                                            </div>

                                            <div class="chatlog__embed-title">
                                                    <a class="chatlog__embed-title-link" href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZ5H6DeaKKs">
                                                        <div class="chatlog__markdown chatlog__markdown-preserve">Build Your Own Fan Club: How to Use Your Email List</div>
                                                    </a>
                                            </div>

                                        <div class="chatlog__embed-youtube-container">
                                            <iframe class="chatlog__embed-youtube" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/jZ5H6DeaKKs" width="400" height="225"></iframe>
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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025859353896562728" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025859353896562728">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 12:58 PM">12:58</div>
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            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Bread and butter</span>

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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025859380060622920" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025859380060622920">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 12:58 PM">12:58</div>
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            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Do yourself a favor and watch this classic</span>

                            <span class="chatlog__edited-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 01:03 PM">(edited)</span>
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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025859818327642202" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025859818327642202">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 01:00 PM">13:00</div>
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            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve"><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UJiv14uPOac">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UJiv14uPOac</a></span>

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                                <div class="chatlog__embed-color-pill" style="background-color: rgba(255, 0, 0, 255)"></div>

                            <div class="chatlog__embed-content-container">
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                                    <div class="chatlog__embed-text">
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                                                        <a class="chatlog__embed-author-link" href="https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC0JB7TSe49lg56u6qH8y_MQ">
                                                            <div class="chatlog__embed-author">GDC</div>
                                                        </a>
                                            </div>

                                            <div class="chatlog__embed-title">
                                                    <a class="chatlog__embed-title-link" href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UJiv14uPOac">
                                                        <div class="chatlog__markdown chatlog__markdown-preserve">Empathizing with Steam: How People Shop for Your Game</div>
                                                    </a>
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                                        <div class="chatlog__embed-youtube-container">
                                            <iframe class="chatlog__embed-youtube" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/UJiv14uPOac" width="400" height="225"></iframe>
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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025859841064972300" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025859841064972300">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 01:00 PM">13:00</div>
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">This one is also really fascinating</span>

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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025859980638822510" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025859980638822510">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 01:01 PM">13:01</div>
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">The section where he talks about how indie romance book authors create a marketing language is so crazy interesting</span>

                            <span class="chatlog__edited-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 01:01 PM">(edited)</span>
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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025860548778270802" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025860548778270802">
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            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 01:03 PM">13:03</div>
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">The tangent is <a class="inserted-after" href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UJiv14uPOac&t=28m15s" target="_blank">28 mins in</a></span>

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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025857858673324102" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025857858673324102">
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                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/c72723180bf059e8dbc35e6eaf9e0fa1-1FB1F.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="azmr#4870" data-user-id="240986595749134336">Andrew (azmr)</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 12:52 PM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">working out what you can make easy for yourself do to promote yourself/your product <em>regularly</em> is important</span>

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                    <div class="chatlog__reactions">
                            <div class="chatlog__reaction" title="point_up_tone1">
                                <img class="chatlog__emoji chatlog__emoji--small" alt="☝🏻" src="files/261d-1f3fb-EBBA6.svg" loading="lazy">
                                <span class="chatlog__reaction-count">1</span>
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                            <div class="chatlog__reaction" title="arrow_up">
                                <img class="chatlog__emoji chatlog__emoji--small" alt="⬆️" src="files/2b06-2C8DA.svg" loading="lazy">
                                <span class="chatlog__reaction-count">1</span>
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                            <div class="chatlog__reaction" title="arrow_heading_up">
                                <img class="chatlog__emoji chatlog__emoji--small" alt="⤴️" src="files/2934-DA6A1.svg" loading="lazy">
                                <span class="chatlog__reaction-count">1</span>
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        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/7d1e6c8c57dd77a1fa0f2d843fd66cc5-4208E.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(155, 89, 182)" title="abnercoimbre#4546" data-user-id="754449440483311728">Abner Coimbre</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 12:53 PM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Yes, once again, you can use your programming skills for this.</span>

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<div class="chatlog__message-group">
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025857964143280249" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025857964143280249">
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                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/e5e2a49a0e3cc3c43b4b79168dcb4da1-B0325.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="Allen4th#9584" data-user-id="273134589000810496">Allen4th</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 12:53 PM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I find all this interesting. The "brand" approach is the only real idea I've had for achieving what I'm looking to achieve. I sort of expected ya'll would say there was a much better route, and instead it sounds like you're thinking the same thing.</span>

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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025858367819874325" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025858367819874325">
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                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/1963eacbf364164efce1c597dc66aeab-E6901.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="bvisness#0001" data-user-id="132715550571888640">bvisness</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 12:54 PM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I feel like I should go back and look at the history of <a class="inserted-after" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Next.js" target="_blank">NextJS</a>, because it has absolutely dominated the JS world and Vercel is now a major player in tech, at least for now</span>

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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025858473579257866" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025858473579257866">
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            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 12:55 PM">12:55</div>
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">(this is not an endorsement of NextJS, far from it)</span>

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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025857989036478524" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025857989036478524">
        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                        <div class="chatlog__reference-symbol"></div>
                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/c72723180bf059e8dbc35e6eaf9e0fa1-1FB1F.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                        <div class="chatlog__reference">
                                <img class="chatlog__reference-avatar" src="files/7d1e6c8c57dd77a1fa0f2d843fd66cc5-4208E.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(155, 89, 182)" title="abnercoimbre#4546">Abner Coimbre</div>
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-content">
                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '1025857934854471690')">
Yes, once again, you can use your programming skills for this.                                    </span>

                                </div>
                        </div>
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="azmr#4870" data-user-id="240986595749134336">Andrew (azmr)</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 12:53 PM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">dangerous</span>

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                    <div class="chatlog__reactions">
                            <div class="chatlog__reaction" title="joy">
                                <img class="chatlog__emoji chatlog__emoji--small" alt="😂" src="files/1f602-20224.svg" loading="lazy">
                                <span class="chatlog__reaction-count">2</span>
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                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/7d1e6c8c57dd77a1fa0f2d843fd66cc5-4208E.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(155, 89, 182)" title="abnercoimbre#4546" data-user-id="754449440483311728">Abner Coimbre</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 12:53 PM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Haha well. When Handmade Seattle approaches, I use <span class="chatlog__markdown-pre chatlog__markdown-pre--inline">systemd</span> to buffer up tweets that get scheduled out randomly through the week.</span>

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            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/c72723180bf059e8dbc35e6eaf9e0fa1-1FB1F.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="azmr#4870" data-user-id="240986595749134336">Andrew (azmr)</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 12:54 PM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">obligatory XKCD <span class="chatlog__markdown-spoiler chatlog__markdown-spoiler--hidden" onclick="showSpoiler(event, this)"> 'Automating' comes from the roots 'auto-' meaning 'self-', and 'mating', meaning 'screwing'.</span></span>

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                    <div class="chatlog__reactions">
                            <div class="chatlog__reaction" title="joy">
                                <img class="chatlog__emoji chatlog__emoji--small" alt="😂" src="files/1f602-20224.svg" loading="lazy">
                                <span class="chatlog__reaction-count">2</span>
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        <div class="chatlog__message">
            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/7d1e6c8c57dd77a1fa0f2d843fd66cc5-4208E.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(155, 89, 182)" title="abnercoimbre#4546" data-user-id="754449440483311728">Abner Coimbre</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 12:55 PM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Yes keep it trivial. Don't over optimize. What's the <em>simplest</em> technical choices you can make to automate something</span>

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<div class="chatlog__message-group">
    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025858306075537510" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025858306075537510">
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                        <div class="chatlog__reference-symbol"></div>
                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/500a026bbe575d128b125d0cf0651a26-22B85.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                        <div class="chatlog__reference">
                                <img class="chatlog__reference-avatar" src="files/0be34eb37a223ff9b4c6214888310d87-1F0CE.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="Zeanith#5921">Zeanith</div>
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-content">
                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '1025856816162275368')">
I believe this is what <span class="chatlog__markdown-mention" title="JangaFX#1318">@Nick Seavert - JangaFX</span> mentioned about the "other half" of the problem. One needs to market, promote, have an ego if you will about your passion project publicly. Clearly state the value proposition and demonstrate it. I'm curious how JangaFX went from zero to one. It was basically a passion project with the beginning $300. Who was the first customer and how did you attract them?                                    </span>

                                </div>
                        </div>
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="JangaFX#1318" data-user-id="218509869282492416">Nick Seavert - JangaFX</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 12:54 PM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Also its important to charge what you're worth. We were selling VectorayGen back in the day for \$199 to studios. When we raised the price to like \$700 we immediately started getting sales from large studios as they then figured it was a valuable product</span>

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                    <div class="chatlog__reactions">
                            <div class="chatlog__reaction" title="exploding_head">
                                <img class="chatlog__emoji chatlog__emoji--small" alt="🤯" src="files/1f92f-F3952.svg" loading="lazy">
                                <span class="chatlog__reaction-count">1</span>
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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="vassvik#0798" data-user-id="132475694293843968">mv</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 12:55 PM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">what's VectorayGen? Weird name</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="JangaFX#1318" data-user-id="218509869282492416">Nick Seavert - JangaFX</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 12:55 PM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">There's a story behind it. Met a guy in whole foods bread isle. We talked and i went to his office. I toured his software company office and he said he wanted to see my website. He saw my pricing, told me to open my wallet. I did, no money in it. He said you see your pricing? You see your wallet? Now you know why you're broke.</span>

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                                <span class="chatlog__reaction-count">1</span>
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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="azmr#4870" data-user-id="240986595749134336">Andrew (azmr)</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 12:56 PM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">dammit! I knew being gluten-free was costing me opportunities!</span>

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                                <img class="chatlog__reference-avatar" src="files/500a026bbe575d128b125d0cf0651a26-22B85.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="" title="JangaFX#1318">Nick Seavert - JangaFX</div>
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-content">
                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '1025858306075537510')">
Also its important to charge what you're worth. We were selling VectorayGen back in the day for \$199 to studios. When we raised the price to like \$700 we immediately started getting sales from large studios as they then figured it was a valuable product                                    </span>

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                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="azmr#4870" data-user-id="240986595749134336">Andrew (azmr)</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 12:55 PM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">yeah pricing is something we haven't gone into much, and it's something of a dark art</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 12:56 PM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">in my opinion a lot of pricing angst is actually sales angst, and the latter is much more amenable to systems thinking</span>

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                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="Allen4th#9584">Allen4th</div>
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                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '1025857964143280249')">
I find all this interesting. The "brand" approach is the only real idea I've had for achieving what I'm looking to achieve. I sort of expected ya'll would say there was a much better route, and instead it sounds like you're thinking the same thing.                                    </span>

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                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="Zeanith#5921" data-user-id="90567213731303424">Zeanith</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 12:56 PM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">well its not necessarily the only way. <span class="chatlog__markdown-mention" title="demetrispanos#5588">@demetrispanos</span> mentioned angel investing in people he knew, although to do that I'm assuming you have to formalize the business proposition a lot more than just having a passion project. I believe everyone is advising the safer route.</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 12:56 PM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">if you are good at selling your thing, you will have much less ambiguity about the price</span>

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                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 12:57 PM">12:57</div>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">and there are mechanistic ways to become good at selling</span>

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                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 12:57 PM">12:57</div>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">or at least good-enough</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(22, 235, 183)" title="philliptrudeau#8865" data-user-id="335466817910996992">philliptrudeau</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 12:57 PM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Miles brought to my attention recently a formalization of roughly what we had in mind prior to release of our product <a href="https://www.forbes.com/sites/rebeccasadwick/2020/06/22/how-to-price-products/?sh=6c2424c155c7" target="_blank">https://www.forbes.com/sites/rebeccasadwick/2020/06/22/how-to-price-products/?sh=6c2424c155c7</a></span>

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                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="Allen4th#9584">Allen4th</div>
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                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '1025858162781327500')">
Can you elaborate on what this means? I hear people say it a lot. What's an email list, how do you build it, and what does it do for you?                                    </span>

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                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="JangaFX#1318" data-user-id="218509869282492416">Nick Seavert - JangaFX</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 12:57 PM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">We hyped the shit out of EmberGen. "Wow look at this REAL TIME fluid simulation! This is going to blow your minds. Learn more at our website. People go to website and see a form to sign up to get an early access invite when its ready". 6,000+ people signed up over 5 or 6 months.</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="JangaFX#1318" data-user-id="218509869282492416">Nick Seavert - JangaFX</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 12:57 PM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">We launched EmberGen and made $6k in a few hours which to us was absolutely insane at the time</span>

                            <span class="chatlog__edited-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 12:58 PM">(edited)</span>
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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="vassvik#0798" data-user-id="132475694293843968">mv</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 12:57 PM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">If you sell to businesses in particular you'll find they can be quite rational about (high) pricing, if you're persistent and confident enough. Individuals are much trickier</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 12:58 PM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">yes another excellent point, businesses can be persuaded with "spreadsheet logic"</span>

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                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 12:58 PM">12:58</div>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">"you spend \$100 on this, but my product costs \$50 and solves the problem better, so I'm really just handing you free money <em>and</em> making your life better"</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="vassvik#0798" data-user-id="132475694293843968">mv</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 12:58 PM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">\$1 to a business is not the same as \$1 to an individual, for a lot of reasons</span>

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                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="azmr#4870">Andrew (azmr)</div>
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                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '1025858580202672179')">
yeah pricing is something we haven't gone into much, and it's something of a dark art                                    </span>

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                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(155, 89, 182)" title="abnercoimbre#4546" data-user-id="754449440483311728">Abner Coimbre</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 12:58 PM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I asked a question about pricing to the creators of Basecamp and Hey Mail! They answer it here (you can Ctrl+F for Abner): <a href="https://www.rework.fm/sell-your-by-products-season-2/" target="_blank">https://www.rework.fm/sell-your-by-products-season-2/</a></span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(155, 89, 182)" title="abnercoimbre#4546" data-user-id="754449440483311728">Abner Coimbre</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 01:00 PM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">One of the answers I liked: <em>"I’d say one heuristic we used in the early days, in particular, was this, would I pay for it? Would I pull out my credit card if someone else was offering this product?"</em>
<img loading="lazy" class="chatlog__emoji " alt="☝" title="☝" src="files/twemoji_261d.svg">️ You'd be surprised how far this gets you.</span>

                            <span class="chatlog__edited-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 01:01 PM">(edited)</span>
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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(155, 89, 182)" title="abnercoimbre#4546" data-user-id="754449440483311728">Abner Coimbre</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 01:01 PM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">It can be tricky to get yourself out of the owner mindset and back to being a customer, but it's possible. (And just like anything else, you can <em>change the price later</em>)</span>

                            <span class="chatlog__edited-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 01:02 PM">(edited)</span>
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                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588">demetrispanos</div>
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                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '1025859300771516497')">
"you spend \$100 on this, but my product costs \$50 and solves the problem better, so I'm really just handing you free money <em>and</em> making your life better"                                    </span>

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                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="vassvik#0798" data-user-id="132475694293843968">mv</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 12:59 PM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">that's like 1 hour saved</span>

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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025859489666183230" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025859489666183230">
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            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 12:59 PM">12:59</div>
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">if you're cheap</span>

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                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/89747c254631bcfd05c5c3e7141389aa-A1FB9.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 12:59 PM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I used placeholder numbers :)</span>

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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025859527658197023" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025859527658197023">
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            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 12:59 PM">12:59</div>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">but yes</span>

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            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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                                <img class="chatlog__reference-avatar" src="files/0be34eb37a223ff9b4c6214888310d87-1F0CE.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="Zeanith#5921">Zeanith</div>
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-content">
                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '1025858829893767290')">
well its not necessarily the only way. <span class="chatlog__markdown-mention" title="demetrispanos#5588">@demetrispanos</span> mentioned angel investing in people he knew, although to do that I'm assuming you have to formalize the business proposition a lot more than just having a passion project. I believe everyone is advising the safer route.                                    </span>

                                </div>
                        </div>
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="Allen4th#9584" data-user-id="273134589000810496">Allen4th</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 12:58 PM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I was trying to ask "what do you do when you don't see how to generate income?" expecting advice on how to monetize things that don't seem easy to monetize. Instead everyone said, "if you must do such a project, you'll need a brand." Suggesting to me that my intuition that these things can't be income generators was right after all.</span>

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                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/0be34eb37a223ff9b4c6214888310d87-1F0CE.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="Zeanith#5921" data-user-id="90567213731303424">Zeanith</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 12:58 PM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">ah ok I understand now. Yea that is fair to conclude.</span>

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            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(22, 235, 183)" title="philliptrudeau#8865" data-user-id="335466817910996992">philliptrudeau</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 12:59 PM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">There may have been a misinterpretation that it was a <em>given</em> that the product couldn't be monetizable -- I still suspect there's a lot of ways to sell products that are hard to market, but it just takes a lot more work and probably product-specific advice.</span>

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                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 01:00 PM">13:00</div>
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            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Indie games were hard to market prior to Steam!</span>

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                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="JangaFX#1318" data-user-id="218509869282492416">Nick Seavert - JangaFX</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 01:00 PM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">For programmers a good way to think about it is: Is it cheaper to buy your product than to build it themselves</span>

                            <span class="chatlog__edited-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 01:00 PM">(edited)</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 01:00 PM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">as I'm sure you know, programmers absolutely loathe this frame :P</span>

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                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/ac726b5857221d734c474b9280b0f2ae-EC09E.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="vassvik#0798" data-user-id="132475694293843968">mv</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 01:00 PM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">If your tool saves a VFX artist 100s of hours a year in waiting and wasted time, and improves productivity and throughput of said artist, is your tool worth \$20/month or \$200/year?</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="vassvik#0798" data-user-id="132475694293843968">mv</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 01:03 PM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">The answer here is clearly different whether you're an individual or a business, even if the raw metrics might overlap (in terms of raw value/usefulness). You can easily convince a company to pay \$2000/year or more, whereas an individual might be a hard sell for \$200/year</span>

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                                <img class="chatlog__reference-avatar" src="files/e5e2a49a0e3cc3c43b4b79168dcb4da1-B0325.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="Allen4th#9584">Allen4th</div>
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-content">
                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '1025859177916157992')">
I was trying to ask "what do you do when you don't see how to generate income?" expecting advice on how to monetize things that don't seem easy to monetize. Instead everyone said, "if you must do such a project, you'll need a brand." Suggesting to me that my intuition that these things can't be income generators was right after all.                                    </span>

                                </div>
                        </div>
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="bvisness#0001" data-user-id="132715550571888640">bvisness</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 01:01 PM</span>
                    </div>

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I suspect do need <em>some</em> side thing to fund the uncertain / technical things. Heck, tons of foundational technology came out of <a class="inserted-after" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell_Labs" target="_blank">Bell Labs</a>, as telecommunications research. So maybe a company + research, maybe a brand...</span>

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                                <img class="chatlog__reference-avatar" src="files/89747c254631bcfd05c5c3e7141389aa-A1FB9.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588">demetrispanos</div>
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-content">
                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '1025858924592767068')">
and there are mechanistic ways to become good at selling                                    </span>

                                </div>
                        </div>
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="azmr#4870" data-user-id="240986595749134336">Andrew (azmr)</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 01:02 PM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">any particular pointers, sensei?</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="bvisness#0001" data-user-id="132715550571888640">bvisness</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 01:02 PM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">maybe a government... <img loading="lazy" class="chatlog__emoji " alt="🙃" title="upside_down" src="files/twemoji_1f643.svg"></span>

                            <span class="chatlog__edited-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 01:02 PM">(edited)</span>
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                            <div class="chatlog__reaction" title="dealWithRion">
                                <img class="chatlog__emoji chatlog__emoji--small" alt="dealWithRion" src="files/857331338150674443-3D0AB.png" loading="lazy">
                                <span class="chatlog__reaction-count">1</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 01:02 PM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I have a long book list, let me dig a few up, but the top recommendation is definitely <a class="inserted-after" href="https://www.amazon.com/Secrets-Question-Based-Selling-Powerful-Business/dp/1402287526" target="_blank">question based selling</a>

also
- <a class="inserted-after" href="https://www.amazon.com/CA-HVERTISING-Ad-agency-Psychology-Anything/dp/1601630328/" target="_blank">ca$hvertising</a> (yes the name is horrible, deal with it)
- <a class="inserted-after" href="https://www.amazon.com/One-Sentence-Persuasion-Course-Bidding-ebook/dp/B00AAF5GJK" target="_blank">one sentence persuasion course</a>
- <a class="inserted-after" href="https://www.amazon.com/B-S-Price-Strategy-Prisoners-Prosperity/dp/1599184001/" target="_blank">NO BS price strategy</a>
- <a class="inserted-after" href="https://www.amazon.com/Priceless-Myth-Fair-Value-Advantage/dp/0809078813" target="_blank">priceless: the myth of fair value</a>
- <a class="inserted-after" href="https://www.amazon.com/Breakthrough-Advertising-Eugene-M-Schwartz/dp/0887232981" target="_blank">breakthrough advertising</a>
- <a class="inserted-after" href="https://www.danpink.com/books/to-sell-is-human/" target="_blank">to sell is human</a>
- <a class="inserted-after" href="https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0062292986/" target="_blank">crossing the chasm</a></span>

                            <span class="chatlog__edited-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 01:05 PM">(edited)</span>
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                            <div class="chatlog__reaction" title="thumbsup">
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                                <span class="chatlog__reaction-count">2</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="JangaFX#1318" data-user-id="218509869282492416">Nick Seavert - JangaFX</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 01:04 PM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Anyway, that's a wrap for me. I have to head out now. If anyone ever wants to chat just DM me <img loading="lazy" class="chatlog__emoji " alt="🙂" title="slight_smile" src="files/twemoji_1f642.svg">
Thanks for putting this together!</span>

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                                <span class="chatlog__reaction-count">6</span>
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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025861012420837396" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025861012420837396">
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                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="bvisness#0001" data-user-id="132715550571888640">bvisness</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 01:05 PM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">THANK YOU for being here! It's been so fascinating to hear from you</span>

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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025861132822515742" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025861132822515742">
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                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 01:05 PM">13:05</div>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">it is probably nearing time to wind this down, but I don't want to interrupt these last threads of conversation now either</span>

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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025861255103266886" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025861255103266886">
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                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 01:06 PM">13:06</div>
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            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">if there are any final topics the participants want to bring up, or if people in the audience have any final points they'd like to address, now is the time</span>

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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025861353426133042" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025861353426133042">
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                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 01:06 PM">13:06</div>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve"><div class="chatlog__markdown-quote"><div class="chatlog__markdown-quote-border"></div><div class="chatlog__markdown-quote-content">ca$hvertising (yes the name is horrible, deal with it)
</div></div>I refuse</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(22, 235, 183)" title="philliptrudeau#8865" data-user-id="335466817910996992">philliptrudeau</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 01:06 PM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Personally I am a bit disappointed that I don't have a good answer for Allen's question, since I think a lot of HMN people consider it pretty important</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 01:07 PM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">the answer is just that you don't always deserve people's money</span>

                            <span class="chatlog__edited-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 01:07 PM">(edited)</span>
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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025861460280229958" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025861460280229958">
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            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 01:07 PM">13:07</div>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">and you need to face that reality</span>

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            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="azmr#4870" data-user-id="240986595749134336">Andrew (azmr)</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 01:07 PM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">coming back round to make some general shots at the overarching topic again: I think the important aspect of "Handmade" is understanding the substrate you're working with.
With programming that's largely understanding the machines and OSs that our software sits upon.
For business, a large part is properly understanding the problem you're trying to solve:
- who your users are (market segment, attributes, paint points)
- what task they're trying to accomplish
- what environment/context they're working in (with all the assumptions, restrictions and affordances that come along with that)

A major difference is that sales &amp; marketing are much <em>fuzzier</em> problem-spaces than programming</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(22, 235, 183)" title="philliptrudeau#8865" data-user-id="335466817910996992">philliptrudeau</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 01:07 PM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">That's taking as given that the product doesn't deliver value to an audience, not just that it's hard to make that audience aware of the product</span>

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                        <div class="chatlog__reference-symbol"></div>
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                        <div class="chatlog__reference">
                                <img class="chatlog__reference-avatar" src="files/89747c254631bcfd05c5c3e7141389aa-A1FB9.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588">demetrispanos</div>
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-content">
                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '1025861460280229958')">
and you need to face that reality                                    </span>

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                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="bvisness#0001" data-user-id="132715550571888640">bvisness</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 01:07 PM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I think phillip is right though that this is a central question for much of the handmade audience</span>

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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025861657190215680" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025861657190215680">
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                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 01:07 PM">13:07</div>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">within our framing of "software quality", how do we actually <em>make stuff happen</em></span>

                            <span class="chatlog__edited-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 01:08 PM">(edited)</span>
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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025861703298195557" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025861703298195557">
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                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="Allen4th#9584" data-user-id="273134589000810496">Allen4th</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 01:08 PM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve"><span class="chatlog__markdown-mention" title="demetrispanos#5588">@demetrispanos</span> I think you're dismissing out of hand the possibility to convert an idea into a business, and shutting down my attempt to start a discussion about how to do so. But maybe that was a bit off topic for this fishbowl - I don't know.</span>

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                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/89747c254631bcfd05c5c3e7141389aa-A1FB9.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 01:08 PM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I am definitely not, and I have done that many times before</span>

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                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/1963eacbf364164efce1c597dc66aeab-E6901.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="bvisness#0001" data-user-id="132715550571888640">bvisness</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 01:08 PM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">if no solution, what's the workaround</span>

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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025861782247579648" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025861782247579648">
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                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/89747c254631bcfd05c5c3e7141389aa-A1FB9.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 01:08 PM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">but not every idea deserves that fate</span>

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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025861788971057274" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025861788971057274">
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                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 01:08 PM">13:08</div>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">this is my point</span>

                            <span class="chatlog__edited-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 01:08 PM">(edited)</span>
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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025861836102455306" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025861836102455306">
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            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 01:08 PM">13:08</div>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">you can't just say "how do I make an idea a business"</span>

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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025861872458670232" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025861872458670232">
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                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 01:08 PM">13:08</div>
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            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">not any more than you can say "how do I turn ingredients into bread"</span>

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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025861888782901349" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025861888782901349">
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                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 01:08 PM">13:08</div>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">not all ingredients can become bread</span>

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            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="Allen4th#9584" data-user-id="273134589000810496">Allen4th</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 01:09 PM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Okay, but I'm saying "I have an idea for a project that will be useful to a lot of people" is that not specific enough?</span>

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                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/89747c254631bcfd05c5c3e7141389aa-A1FB9.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 01:09 PM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">if it's useful to a lot of people then why not ask them to pay you?</span>

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                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 01:09 PM">13:09</div>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">if they won't pay you, how do you explain that?</span>

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                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(22, 235, 183)" title="philliptrudeau#8865" data-user-id="335466817910996992">philliptrudeau</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 01:10 PM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">That they don't know it exists -- the challenge is bridging that gap</span>

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                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/89747c254631bcfd05c5c3e7141389aa-A1FB9.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 01:10 PM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">ok if the problem is just awareness then the solution is marketing</span>

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                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/e5e2a49a0e3cc3c43b4b79168dcb4da1-B0325.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="Allen4th#9584" data-user-id="273134589000810496">Allen4th</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 01:10 PM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I don't know, that's what I would like to talk about.</span>

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                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 01:10 PM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">(good) marketing is the process of making people realize they would like to pay you</span>

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                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/e5e2a49a0e3cc3c43b4b79168dcb4da1-B0325.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="Allen4th#9584" data-user-id="273134589000810496">Allen4th</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 01:11 PM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I think some of the projects that would be useful to people are most useful to people who don't have a lot of spare money. The people who could and would spend a lot on it might be able to make it into a business, but then most of the value of the project isn't realized.</span>

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                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 01:11 PM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve"><div class="chatlog__markdown-quote"><div class="chatlog__markdown-quote-border"></div><div class="chatlog__markdown-quote-content">projects that would be useful to people are most useful to people who don't have a lot of spare money
</div></div>this is not a business</span>

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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025862701659979897" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025862701659979897">
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                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 01:12 PM">13:12</div>
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            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I swear I am not trying to be a jerk, I'm trying to give you real from-the-actual-world advice</span>

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                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="Allen4th#9584" data-user-id="273134589000810496">Allen4th</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 01:12 PM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Additionally, there are certain types of projects for which a price tag inherently decreases the value of the project. (Core tool chain stuff being the example I brought up earlier)</span>

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            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 01:12 PM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">perhaps you can use the no-spare-money-people as a marketing force</span>

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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025862813626937437" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025862813626937437">
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            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 01:12 PM">13:12</div>
            </div>

            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">but somehow you need to get someone who has enough spare money to give you some of it</span>

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                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/89747c254631bcfd05c5c3e7141389aa-A1FB9.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 01:12 PM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">definitionally, people with no spare money cannot give you any</span>

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            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(22, 235, 183)" title="philliptrudeau#8865" data-user-id="335466817910996992">philliptrudeau</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 01:12 PM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">A few decades ago, a price tag on a toolchain was considered normal!</span>

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            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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                                <img class="chatlog__reference-avatar" src="files/89747c254631bcfd05c5c3e7141389aa-A1FB9.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588">demetrispanos</div>
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-content">
                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '1025862769607725056')">
perhaps you can use the no-spare-money-people as a marketing force                                    </span>

                                </div>
                        </div>
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="bvisness#0001" data-user-id="132715550571888640">bvisness</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 01:12 PM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">see: giving your product away to students for free</span>

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            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="azmr#4870" data-user-id="240986595749134336">Andrew (azmr)</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 01:13 PM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">see also: "oh no, people are pirating our precious Photoshop <img loading="lazy" class="chatlog__emoji " alt="👀" title="eyes" src="files/twemoji_1f440.svg">"</span>

                            <span class="chatlog__edited-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 01:15 PM">(edited)</span>
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                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/ac726b5857221d734c474b9280b0f2ae-EC09E.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                        <div class="chatlog__reference">
                                <img class="chatlog__reference-avatar" src="files/89747c254631bcfd05c5c3e7141389aa-A1FB9.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588">demetrispanos</div>
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-content">
                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '1025862851971252294')">
definitionally, people with no spare money cannot give you any                                    </span>

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                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="vassvik#0798" data-user-id="132475694293843968">mv</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 01:14 PM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Directly. Potentially indirect value</span>

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                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 01:14 PM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">yes see below re: marketing force :)</span>

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                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(22, 235, 183)" title="philliptrudeau#8865" data-user-id="335466817910996992">philliptrudeau</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 01:14 PM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">If Clang has eaten the toolchain space then, for example, some toolchain writers will seek corporate sponsorships and do B2B marketing, or crowdfund on GitHub Sponsors like the Mold author Rui Ueyama is <a class="inserted-after" href="https://github.com/sponsors/rui314" target="_blank">currently doing</a>.</span>

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                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(22, 235, 183)" title="philliptrudeau#8865" data-user-id="335466817910996992">philliptrudeau</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 01:15 PM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">In Mold's case, marketing might happen on Hacker News. But, as you can tell it's really tricky, since you have to be inventive in project-specific ways.</span>

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                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/1963eacbf364164efce1c597dc66aeab-E6901.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">
                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="bvisness#0001" data-user-id="132715550571888640">bvisness</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 01:14 PM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">you need to persuade <em>someone</em> to give you money, and I don't think it has to be your direct users - like in the Bell Labs example from before, presumably Bell thought the research was worth paying for, in the Zig example, corporate sponsors feel it's worth paying for (if just altruistically)</span>

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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025863474892509204" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025863474892509204">
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                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 01:15 PM">13:15</div>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">core toolchain stuff is definitely a tough sell in a world where everything is free, but there has to be a value proposition to <em>someone</em>...</span>

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                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="Zeanith#5921" data-user-id="90567213731303424">Zeanith</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 01:15 PM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Well not just students, the <a class="inserted-after" href="https://www.reaper.fm/" target="_blank">Reaper DAW</a> has trail period but clearly states it is not free software, but isnt overbearing on this.</span>

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                    <img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/89747c254631bcfd05c5c3e7141389aa-A1FB9.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 01:16 PM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I realize I may come across as dour here but I really think programmers have a huge blind spot on this topic</span>

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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025863749200003142" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025863749200003142">
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                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 01:16 PM">13:16</div>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">if you were playing a game and you needed in-game money, you would go to the places that have money drops</span>

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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025863773921226872" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025863773921226872">
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            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 01:16 PM">13:16</div>
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            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">this is so obvious that I sound dumb mentioning it</span>

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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025863843768979567" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025863843768979567">
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            <div class="chatlog__message-aside">
                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 01:16 PM">13:16</div>
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            <div class="chatlog__message-primary">

                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">and yet many people struggle to apply this kind of thinking to product/business/marketing thinking</span>

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                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(22, 235, 183)" title="philliptrudeau#8865" data-user-id="335466817910996992">philliptrudeau</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 01:23 PM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">also, as attractive as might be to say that handmade devs are just working on things that don't make money, there are incidental-complexity reasons that some institutions are biased against handmade
e.g. game publishers trend against funding custom-engine games because they don't hire talent who can help your studio build anything other than unity/unreal games, and they don't buy QA or testing solutions that work for anything other than unity/unreal games
and yet, custom engines do not <em>per se</em> make less, although the evidence is hard to collect</span>

                            <span class="chatlog__edited-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 01:32 PM">(edited)</span>
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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="Zeanith#5921" data-user-id="90567213731303424">Zeanith</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 01:17 PM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve"><span class="chatlog__markdown-mention" title="Allen4th#9584">@Allen4th</span> could you give a more concrete example as a hypothetical? I think no one is saying anything you were not aware of, and your point is more specific.</span>

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<div class="chatlog__message-group">
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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="Allen4th#9584" data-user-id="273134589000810496">Allen4th</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 01:18 PM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve"><span class="chatlog__markdown-mention" title="Zeanith#5921">@Zeanith</span> Sure. A more concrete example of what exactly? The sort of projects that I have in mind?</span>

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                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="Zeanith#5921" data-user-id="90567213731303424">Zeanith</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 01:19 PM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">yes</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="Allen4th#9584" data-user-id="273134589000810496">Allen4th</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 01:21 PM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Okay, so one big problem I have observed is that much of the toolchain on both Windows and Unix environments is either poorly documented because the developers dropped the ball (Windows) or highly over documented because of a long history of legacy and over generality (Unix). This makes things like binary analysis, writing assemblers, disassemblers, linkers, etc a huge dark art. Fixing this is a lot of work (costs $) but I'm not sure who would pay for it. The benefit would be that lots of other parts of the tool chain could be built more efficiently, people could learn this stuff from clearer resources and come up with new innovative projects, etc. But who in this system would pay for that work?</span>

                            <span class="chatlog__edited-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 01:21 PM">(edited)</span>
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                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="Allen4th#9584">Allen4th</div>
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                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '1025865160180641833')">
Okay, so one big problem I have observed is that much of the toolchain on both Windows and Unix environments is either poorly documented because the developers dropped the ball (Windows) or highly over documented because of a long history of legacy and over generality (Unix). This makes things like binary analysis, writing assemblers, disassemblers, linkers, etc a huge dark art. Fixing this is a lot of work (costs $) but I'm not sure who would pay for it. The benefit would be that lots of other parts of the tool chain could be built more efficiently, people could learn this stuff from clearer resources and come up with new innovative projects, etc. But who in this system would pay for that work?                                    </span>

                                        <span class="chatlog__reference-edited-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 01:21 PM">(edited)</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="azmr#4870" data-user-id="240986595749134336">Andrew (azmr)</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 01:24 PM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">in the same way some open source devs have a "crowdpay for an upcoming feature", you could do a "crowdpay for documenting X". The payment acts both as a voting mechanism for what people want, and you can have a threshold for how much you're willing to do the thing for.

if people aren't willing to pay for it then it may not be worthwhile...</span>

                            <span class="chatlog__edited-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 01:25 PM">(edited)</span>
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                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="Allen4th#9584">Allen4th</div>
                                <div class="chatlog__reference-content">
                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '1025865160180641833')">
Okay, so one big problem I have observed is that much of the toolchain on both Windows and Unix environments is either poorly documented because the developers dropped the ball (Windows) or highly over documented because of a long history of legacy and over generality (Unix). This makes things like binary analysis, writing assemblers, disassemblers, linkers, etc a huge dark art. Fixing this is a lot of work (costs $) but I'm not sure who would pay for it. The benefit would be that lots of other parts of the tool chain could be built more efficiently, people could learn this stuff from clearer resources and come up with new innovative projects, etc. But who in this system would pay for that work?                                    </span>

                                        <span class="chatlog__reference-edited-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 01:21 PM">(edited)</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 01:24 PM</span>
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                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">this sounds, to me, like something best done within some large organization that can take risks on long time scales</span>

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                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 01:24 PM">13:24</div>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">when the benefits are mainly long term, and accrue to other workers, and they are hard to measure, then it's hard to make it transactional</span>

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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025865983807717458" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025865983807717458">
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                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 01:25 PM">13:25</div>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">how much would you give me right now if I told you I could, maybe, make a friend of yours 10% more productive 5 years from now?</span>

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    <div id="chatlog__message-container-1025866027445272657" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="1025866027445272657">
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                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 01:25 PM">13:25</div>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">in some sense that's a large value, 10% of an engineer's productivity</span>

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                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 01:25 PM">13:25</div>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">on the other hand, I assume you will not give me any money on this basis</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="Allen4th#9584" data-user-id="273134589000810496">Allen4th</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 01:25 PM</span>
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                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Certainly not more than say $20.</span>

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                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="Allen4th#9584">Allen4th</div>
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                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '1025865160180641833')">
Okay, so one big problem I have observed is that much of the toolchain on both Windows and Unix environments is either poorly documented because the developers dropped the ball (Windows) or highly over documented because of a long history of legacy and over generality (Unix). This makes things like binary analysis, writing assemblers, disassemblers, linkers, etc a huge dark art. Fixing this is a lot of work (costs $) but I'm not sure who would pay for it. The benefit would be that lots of other parts of the tool chain could be built more efficiently, people could learn this stuff from clearer resources and come up with new innovative projects, etc. But who in this system would pay for that work?                                    </span>

                                        <span class="chatlog__reference-edited-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 01:21 PM">(edited)</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(22, 235, 183)" title="philliptrudeau#8865" data-user-id="335466817910996992">philliptrudeau</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 01:26 PM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">to some extent, Jon Blow is <a class="inserted-after" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Blow#2017%E2%80%93present:_Jai_Programming_Language,_untitled_sokoban_game,_and_Braid,_Anniversary_Edition" target="_blank">trying to establish</a> a non-crappy toolchain via the new programming language for games, but sadly that's sort of an angel-investment on the part of the company! <img loading="lazy" class="chatlog__emoji " alt="😰" title="cold_sweat" src="files/twemoji_1f630.svg"></span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="Zeanith#5921" data-user-id="90567213731303424">Zeanith</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 01:26 PM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">But consider the best case for Allen's proposition. You empower an entire generation of developers to be more productive with a not necessarily lower barrier to entry, but a better defined one.</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(22, 235, 183)" title="philliptrudeau#8865" data-user-id="335466817910996992">philliptrudeau</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 01:27 PM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Dogfooding the better product like Thekla plans to do might be another business strategy, but it necessitates two products at once.</span>

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                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 01:27 PM">13:27</div>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I think <span class="chatlog__markdown-mention" title="cloin#0529">@cloin</span> is going to be doing that with his <s>profiler</s> <a class="inserted-after" href="https://github.com/colrdavidson/spall" target="_blank">profile trace viewer + profile trace emitter</a>.</span>

                            <span class="chatlog__edited-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 01:28 PM">(edited)</span>
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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="cloin#0529" data-user-id="396068171087478784">cloin (audience)</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 02:18 PM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Vaguely responding here to <span class="chatlog__markdown-mention" title="philliptrudeau#8865">@philliptrudeau</span>&#39;s poke here, because it&#39;s topical.

At least in theory, there&#39;s a bunch of different ways to crack open a market and <em>hopefully</em> make it monetizable.

My rough gameplan is to ship 2 products eventually, one that runs natively, supports more memory / bigger files, etc for $$$, and the web one, for free.

The market is already saturated with free tools, but they&#39;re all garbage. I have to win over the hearts and minds of the droves of <a class="inserted-after" href="https://www.chromium.org/developers/how-tos/trace-event-profiling-tool/" target="_blank">chrome://tracing</a> / <a class="inserted-after" href="https://perfetto.dev/" target="_blank">perfetto</a> users. I <em>suspect</em> there are tons of people out there that have never even heard of <span class="chatlog__markdown-pre chatlog__markdown-pre--inline">chrome://tracing</span> and hadn&#39;t considered doing serious profiling before, that would be totally responsive if the process was easy enough.

Most of my users will probably never pay for my thing though, and that&#39;s ok. In my mind, even if it winds up just being a good publicity stunt / user awareness move, it&#39;s a win for me.</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="azmr#4870" data-user-id="240986595749134336">Andrew (azmr)</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 01:27 PM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">bad documentation has a visceral frustration that devs have experienced at one point or another... if you know you're going to tackle a problem that would involve a particular poorly-documented API, I'd probably be willing to pay something to improve that experience</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="Zeanith#5921" data-user-id="90567213731303424">Zeanith</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 01:27 PM</span>
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                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Like that has ramifications way further than the toolchain or documentation in question. I dont even know how you put a price on that.</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="bvisness#0001" data-user-id="132715550571888640">bvisness</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 01:28 PM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">the benefits are obvious in the general sense but I wouldn't pay for it except for, essentially, philanthropic reasons</span>

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                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="Zeanith#5921">Zeanith</div>
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                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '1025866347290304573')">
But consider the best case for Allen's proposition. You empower an entire generation of developers to be more productive with a not necessarily lower barrier to entry, but a better defined one.                                    </span>

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                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 01:28 PM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">paul graham has a famous essay "<a class="inserted-after" href="http://www.paulgraham.com/bronze.html" target="_blank">where there's muck there's brass</a>", in which he says (among other things) that things like programming languages are natural non-businesses because you have too many people willing to do them for free</span>

                            <span class="chatlog__edited-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 01:28 PM">(edited)</span>
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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="Allen4th#9584" data-user-id="273134589000810496">Allen4th</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 01:28 PM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">The reason I want to find another way, outside of large organizations, is that what we're getting now <em>is</em> the result of leaving it up them. This is that timeline.</span>

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                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 01:28 PM">13:28</div>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">It may not be a problem that can be solved, but it seems to me like one that's worth trying to solve. Hence why I'm asking probably naive questions.</span>

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                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(22, 235, 183)" title="philliptrudeau#8865">philliptrudeau</div>
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Dogfooding the better product like Thekla plans to do might be another business strategy, but it necessitates two products at once.                                    </span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(155, 89, 182)" title="abnercoimbre#4546" data-user-id="754449440483311728">Abner Coimbre</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 01:29 PM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Quick note: AFAICT Jon self-funds so much of his work, to hire help etc. and then raises capital from wealthy friends who trust Jon to do whatever. However, it does sound like <span class="chatlog__markdown-mention" title="Allen4th#9584">@Allen4th</span> is working on a budget and savings so there should be some resources there.</span>

                            <span class="chatlog__edited-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 01:32 PM">(edited)</span>
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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="bvisness#0001" data-user-id="132715550571888640">bvisness</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 01:30 PM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I alluded to an HMN nonprofit in <span class="chatlog__markdown-mention">#fishbowl-audience</span>, and indeed I would love to someday fund this kind of thing as essentially charity - and get funds coming in by marketing the Handmade brand</span>

                            <span class="chatlog__edited-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 01:32 PM">(edited)</span>
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                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="Allen4th#9584">Allen4th</div>
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                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '1025866920366440529')">
It may not be a problem that can be solved, but it seems to me like one that's worth trying to solve. Hence why I'm asking probably naive questions.                                    </span>

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                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 01:30 PM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I think it's very good for people to ask "is it possible to build a flying machine", but those people need to understand gravity and aerodynamics to do so</span>

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                                <div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="Allen4th#9584">Allen4th</div>
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                                    <span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '1025866920366440529')">
It may not be a problem that can be solved, but it seems to me like one that's worth trying to solve. Hence why I'm asking probably naive questions.                                    </span>

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                    <div class="chatlog__header">
                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="Zeanith#5921" data-user-id="90567213731303424">Zeanith</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 01:30 PM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I think a real world example of this is <a class="inserted-after" href="https://handmadehero.org/" target="_blank">Handmade Hero</a>. No way was that worth Casey's time but it spawned this entire community, although that was marketed the traditional way.</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 01:30 PM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">"why will someone pay you" and "how will they know they want to pay you" are the "gravity" and "aerodynamics" of making something a business</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(22, 235, 183)" title="philliptrudeau#8865" data-user-id="335466817910996992">philliptrudeau</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 01:31 PM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">the product and the marketing... <img loading="lazy" class="chatlog__emoji " alt="🤔" title="thinking" src="files/twemoji_1f914.svg"></span>

                            <span class="chatlog__edited-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 01:31 PM">(edited)</span>
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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="Allen4th#9584" data-user-id="273134589000810496">Allen4th</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 01:32 PM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">In the spirit of winding things down soon, my biggest hope for the handmade community and entrepreneurship, is that we do find new solutions (i.e. business models) for making these high quality fundamental tools.</span>

                            <span class="chatlog__edited-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 01:33 PM">(edited)</span>
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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="bvisness#0001" data-user-id="132715550571888640">bvisness</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 01:33 PM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I would certainly love to. We need that kind of work to happen.</span>

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                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 01:34 PM">13:34</div>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">As Allen mentioned though, it's probably time to wrap up. Thank you all SO MUCH for being here today! I had a wonderful time just spectating and soaking up information. I'll be pondering this stuff for a while.</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(22, 235, 183)" title="philliptrudeau#8865" data-user-id="335466817910996992">philliptrudeau</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 01:35 PM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I think, among existing solutions, there are already several balances that a person can strike -- B2B vs B2C, crowdfunder vs. investment vs. bootstrapper, product-builder vs. content-creator -- that give handmade devs a lot of freedom, so it's a very promising space</span>

                            <span class="chatlog__edited-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 01:35 PM">(edited)</span>
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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="bvisness#0001" data-user-id="132715550571888640">bvisness</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 01:35 PM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">For those who aren't aware, we have a <span class="chatlog__markdown-mention">#business-dev</span> channel dedicated to this sort of conversation. If any of you are interested in continuing to discuss this topic, that would be a great place to do so.</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(22, 235, 183)" title="philliptrudeau#8865" data-user-id="335466817910996992">philliptrudeau</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 01:35 PM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Super honoured to be here! Thanks everyone <img loading="lazy" class="chatlog__emoji " alt="🙏" title="pray" src="files/twemoji_1f64f.svg"></span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="bvisness#0001" data-user-id="132715550571888640">bvisness</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 01:35 PM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">And we'll leave <span class="chatlog__markdown-mention">#fishbowl-audience</span> open for a good bit too.</span>

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                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 01:35 PM">13:35</div>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I know we just barely scratched the surface of this subject today. Maybe we can revisit it at some point in the future.</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="Zeanith#5921" data-user-id="90567213731303424">Zeanith</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 01:36 PM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Thanks for organizing this <span class="chatlog__markdown-mention" title="bvisness#0001">@bvisness</span> and thanks everyone for being a part of this discussion. Happy we explored this topic, it lit a fire in me at least <img loading="lazy" class="chatlog__emoji " alt="😆" title="laughing" src="files/twemoji_1f606.svg"></span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(155, 89, 182)" title="abnercoimbre#4546" data-user-id="754449440483311728">Abner Coimbre</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 01:36 PM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">This felt like an explosion of bottled-up feelings about entrepreneurship and running a business <img loading="lazy" class="chatlog__emoji " alt="🙂" title="slight_smile" src="files/twemoji_1f642.svg"></span>

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                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 01:37 PM">13:37</div>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Much needed. Agreed we only scratched the surface but got solid nuggets of wisdom</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="Zeanith#5921" data-user-id="90567213731303424">Zeanith</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 01:37 PM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">definitely need to come back to this in some way</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(155, 89, 182)" title="abnercoimbre#4546" data-user-id="754449440483311728">Abner Coimbre</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 01:37 PM</span>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Thanks for organizing <span class="chatlog__markdown-mention" title="bvisness#0001">@bvisness</span>! And for the suggestion to do this <span class="chatlog__markdown-mention" title="Zeanith#5921">@Zeanith</span></span>

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                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 01:38 PM">13:38</div>
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                    <div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Happy to have contributed something</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="Allen4th#9584" data-user-id="273134589000810496">Allen4th</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 01:38 PM</span>
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                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">This was very interesting, thanks <span class="chatlog__markdown-mention" title="bvisness#0001">@bvisness</span> !</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="azmr#4870" data-user-id="240986595749134336">Andrew (azmr)</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 01:39 PM</span>
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                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">thanks everyone - lots of interesting things raised... I'm off to get some more books <img loading="lazy" class="chatlog__emoji " alt="😄" title="smile" src="files/twemoji_1f604.svg"> Cheers for organising it <span class="chatlog__markdown-mention" title="bvisness#0001">@bvisness</span> and for the suggestion <span class="chatlog__markdown-mention" title="Zeanith#5921">@Zeanith</span></span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="azmr#4870" data-user-id="240986595749134336">Andrew (azmr)</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 01:40 PM</span>
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                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">(and thanks for inviting me! ❤️ )</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="bvisness#0001" data-user-id="132715550571888640">bvisness</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 01:40 PM</span>
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                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Of course, happy to do it, and thank you all again.</span>

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                        <span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="bvisness#0001" data-user-id="132715550571888640">bvisness</span>


                        <span class="chatlog__timestamp">Oct 01, 2022 01:42 PM</span>
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                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Pinned a message.</span>

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                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 01:42 PM">13:42</div>
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                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">For future readers, the top of the conversation has been pinned, and here is a link for convenience: <a href="https://discord.com/channels/239737791225790464/1025816669450416138/1025816855417475082" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '1025816855417475082')">https://discord.com/channels/239737791225790464/1025816669450416138/1025816855417475082</a></span>

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                    <div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="01-Oct-22 01:43 PM">13:43</div>
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                        <span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Thank you all for reading!</span>

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