diff --git a/src/templates/src/fishbowls/entrepreneurship/entrepreneurship.html b/src/templates/src/fishbowls/entrepreneurship/entrepreneurship.html index f534546..72415d9 100644 --- a/src/templates/src/fishbowls/entrepreneurship/entrepreneurship.html +++ b/src/templates/src/fishbowls/entrepreneurship/entrepreneurship.html @@ -667,28 +667,10 @@ Finally you may remember Casey ran Handmade Con for a couple of years but then s
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Abner Coimbre
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- -Hi everyone, hope this isn't too long-winded! I was a systems programmer throughout my 20s. First, a lucky break at Kennedy Space Center πŸš€ - -That experience shaped the rest of my career (you can read my essay about their philosophy: https://observer.com/2017/07/a-look-into-nasa-coding-philosophy-kennedy-space-center-programming/) You'll see I mention Handmade as the only movement "out there" that had a similar philosophy. I wanted to make Handmade stronger, so Casey let me organize the Handmade community. With the help of an amazing dev team we founded Handmade Network. - -I met Jonathan Blow and I worked under him for ~3 years on the Jai compiler, a bit of Sokoban, and the Braid HD Remake. Here's an old interview where Jon and I talk sometime before he hired me: https://handmadedev.show/ep-10-2016/ - -After Jon I did a stint for Cyan Worlds on Myst VR (the game shipped last year.) They gave me a proper sendoff here: https://cyan.com/2022/04/13/some-sad-happy-news-to-share/ - -Finally you may remember Casey ran Handmade Con for a couple of years but then stopped. People asked me to take over and Casey gave me the greenlight handmadeThumbsUp I very quickly realized I'm just as much into human interactions as I am into computers, so I started running Handmade conferences full-time. Here's the 2022 announcement post: https://media.handmade-seattle.com/self-hosted-conference/ - -
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Abner Coimbre @@ -1774,20 +1756,10 @@ So you have to do it over and over and over again
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bvisness
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- -what gave you the confidence that you could achieve such rapid iteration? - -
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Nick Seavert - JangaFX @@ -1814,20 +1786,10 @@ what gave you the confidence that you could achieve such rapid iteration?
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Nick Seavert - JangaFX
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- -Naievity - -
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Andrew (azmr) @@ -2021,20 +1983,10 @@ I was wrong, Nick was right
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Nick Seavert - JangaFX
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- -At GDC in 2019 I was told that I was wasting my time and that it wasn't possible, but I had a hunch that it was. We were actually the first tool to ever put the sim and render passes together - -
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mv @@ -2061,20 +2013,10 @@ At GDC in 2019 I was told that I was wasting my time and that it wasn't possible
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- -We did actually launch our first paid early-access alpha version just days before Handmade Seattle 2019 that same year, and it's been rolling every since - -
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Nick Seavert - JangaFX @@ -2192,21 +2134,10 @@ We did actually launch our first paid early-access alpha version just days befor
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what even is entrepreneurship -
I think the basics of this are "solving problems for people in a way they're willing to pay for" - -
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Nick Seavert - JangaFX @@ -2233,21 +2164,10 @@ We did actually launch our first paid early-access alpha version just days befor
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what even is entrepreneurship -
I think the basics of this are "solving problems for people in a way they're willing to pay for" - -
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mv @@ -2443,20 +2363,10 @@ Solving a real problem ensures that you'll have a long-term sustainable business
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- -This might be one of the reasons for the volatility and risk of game development! - -
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Nick Seavert - JangaFX @@ -2563,20 +2473,10 @@ This might be one of the reasons for the volatility and risk of game development
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- -"Games-and-tools company" a la Valve/Epic might be more snowballable, but those are the old guard... - -
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Nick Seavert - JangaFX @@ -2890,20 +2790,10 @@ If it makes CENTS it makes sense. This is from my all time favorite book that is
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Zeanith
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- -wondering if @demetrispanos has observed key insights with his sample size of 15. 11/15 failures seems like the stereotypical failure rate that puts a lot of people off from even trying. - -
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mv @@ -2930,20 +2820,10 @@ wondering if
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- -wondering if @demetrispanos has observed key insights with his sample size of 15. 11/15 failures seems like the stereotypical failure rate that puts a lot of people off from even trying. - -
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demetrispanos @@ -3176,20 +3056,10 @@ wondering if
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- -We probably represent the polar opposite direction of development I guess, considering we're completely bootstrapped with no VC or external investment - -
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demetrispanos @@ -3248,20 +3118,10 @@ well, I don't mean to promote myself, but yes I think 4/15 is actually a quite g
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- -are there any particular patterns you can observe across the 4/15 that distinguish them from the other 11/15 (either things that look necessary or things that should be avoided at all costs)? - -
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demetrispanos @@ -3429,20 +3289,10 @@ impressive-tech people are good to have on the team, but not good to have in cha
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- -impressive tech people are a dime a dozen. there's thousands of people who could program something like EmberGen-lite in a couple weeks. that's 1% of the work - -
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demetrispanos @@ -3594,20 +3444,10 @@ if you think you can do something much better than existing solutions, that's ce
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- -Maybe a bit cheesy as a term, and it wasn't mentioned earlier specifically, but my view is there's almost always ways to "innovate" in almost all aspects of business. With the right mindset it should be possible to pick any industry, ask the people working in that industry what they struggle with or what their primary source of friction is, and then innovate and improve on what they tell you. Bonus point if you've got a foot in that industry from the get-go. Maybe this viewport has one foot in each camp, though? - -
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Nick Seavert - JangaFX @@ -3676,20 +3516,10 @@ Maybe a bit cheesy as a term, and it wasn't mentioned earlier specifically, but
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- -Scale is an important knob to tweak. The size of your audience seems controlled more by what product you choose to build than anything else! - -
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mv @@ -3816,20 +3646,10 @@ impressive tech people are a dime a dozen. there's thousands of people who could
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- -entrepreneurship is actually just learning that there's always another 99% :P - -
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Nick Seavert - JangaFX @@ -4111,20 +3931,10 @@ yeah, if you're involved in both the tech & business side you need to be con
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- -Every time Nick says "it would be nice to have...." a kitten dies - -
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Nick Seavert - JangaFX @@ -4332,26 +4142,10 @@ This is the trend that dominates the tech industry, or am I wrong? In g
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- -There are traditional practices that can make you a better entrepreneur, and I can touch on those in a minute. However, we should acknowledge the current environment. The modern pattern is: - -(1) Software shop runs out of money, dies. -(2) Software shop gets acquired. -(3) Software shop raises outside funding, owner is no longer under full control. - -This is the trend that dominates the tech industry, or am I wrong? In general, it is punishing to be independent and/or bootstrapped, but somehow this is what we want (at least that's true for me.) - -
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mv @@ -4382,20 +4176,10 @@ This is the trend that dominates the tech industry, or am I wrong? In g
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- -(4) Friction between owners, everything implodes - -
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mv @@ -4420,22 +4204,10 @@ Trust me, there's a difference <div id=
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- -(5) Friction between owners, everything explodes - -Trust me, there's a difference hehehe - -
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Nick Seavert - JangaFX @@ -4458,22 +4230,10 @@ Trust me, there's a difference <div id=
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- -(5) Friction between owners, everything explodes - -Trust me, there's a difference hehehe - -
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Andrew (azmr) @@ -4602,21 +4362,10 @@ we've mentioned 1 or 2, but there are a bunch of conceptual tools/frameworks for
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- -re: filling out the map of business concepts -we've mentioned 1 or 2, but there are a bunch of conceptual tools/frameworks for startups, many of which I think are from silicon valley... it might be interesting to consider which of these we think are actually useful and which are just fluff - -
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Andrew (azmr) @@ -4691,21 +4440,10 @@ we've mentioned 1 or 2, but there are a bunch of conceptual tools/frameworks for
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- -This is counterintuitive for me, isnt technical prowess the majority of the value proposition? As in the case of Embergen, their iteration speed is a technical achievement that bests their competitors. I dont see how this can be 1% of the work as a whole. Being 1% of the work assumes it should only take 1% of your focus, or am I misinterpreting the statement? - - (edited) -
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mv @@ -4738,22 +4476,10 @@ only on the surface really, but it's definitely part of the optics and first imp
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This is counterintuitive for me, isnt technical prowess the majority of the value proposition? -
-only on the surface really, but it's definitely part of the optics and first impressions - -
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mv @@ -5046,20 +4772,10 @@ Most programmers, myself included, have spent months or years building out an in
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Abner Coimbre
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- -Programmers fear the social ridicule from failed attempts at marketing, but learning to live with that fear is key to succeeding as an entrepreneur. - -
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Andrew (azmr) @@ -5379,20 +5095,10 @@ In the case of EmberGen, it's only a matter of time before others eventually rea
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- -What strategies in particular were you able to use to out-chess the competition? What innovation was employed on the marketing/execution side? I'd love to know a small example if you can divulge such info. An example of a key mistake would be interesting too. - -
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Nick Seavert - JangaFX @@ -5502,20 +5208,10 @@ What strategies in particular were you able to use to out-chess the competition?
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- -What's the opposite of innovation? Stagnation? - -
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demetrispanos @@ -5612,20 +5308,10 @@ I am hearing that good tech is a necessary - but not sufficient ingredient to an
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- -It sounds fluffy and copout-y, but when you have the time and the motivation to focus purely on the business (which is sometimes a privilege!) then you sort of just start analyzing everything that you need to Get Done, and I think it's going to vary a lot per business when we're talking smaller individual-level scale. You have a limited bandwidth anyway, so you start entering the "optimization mode" like with code where you find the 80% easy-wins and optimize them down to marginal, rinse and repeat - -
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Allen4th @@ -5650,22 +5336,10 @@ I'm trying to get ya'll to take seriously the possibility that it's not obvious
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- -I think you're assuming that I (and the audience) do know what "needs to Get Done". I spent 5 years trying to advance 4coder by doing what I thought needed to get done, and while I was successful in my specific goals, the broader goal of making 4coder more popular only ever happened when I made it cheaper. - -I'm trying to get ya'll to take seriously the possibility that it's not obvious to everyone what's worth paying attention to. - -
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philliptrudeau @@ -5690,22 +5364,10 @@ In a business, the overarching goals are obviously just to build a product that
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Allen4th
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- -I think you're assuming that I (and the audience) do know what "needs to Get Done". I spent 5 years trying to advance 4coder by doing what I thought needed to get done, and while I was successful in my specific goals, the broader goal of making 4coder more popular only ever happened when I made it cheaper. - -I'm trying to get ya'll to take seriously the possibility that it's not obvious to everyone what's worth paying attention to. - -
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Andrew (azmr) @@ -5741,21 +5403,10 @@ I'm trying to get ya'll to take seriously the possibility that it's not obvious
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- -What needs to get done depends to some degree on what stage your business/product is at. -The Startup Owners Manual splits the key initial processes into Customer Discovery and Customer Validation (photos show pipelines for each) - -
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Nick Seavert - JangaFX @@ -6016,21 +5667,10 @@ What strategies in particular were you able to use to out-chess the competition?
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not having it super concrete -
this is extremely important / dangerous, but also powerful ... it's often important to follow your intuition that there's an opportunity somewhere, but it's also important not to let that ambiguity linger very long (because it makes you waste time and psychic energy entertaining uncertainty) - -
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mv @@ -6180,20 +5820,10 @@ With #3 you start building professional relationships (gasp al
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Abner Coimbre
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- -I know you might immediately feel "icky" because of so many SEO experts and small CEOs out there doing the same thing. Like cold-calling or cold-emailing people. - -
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Abner Coimbre @@ -6224,20 +5854,10 @@ I know you might immediately feel "icky" because of so many SEO experts and smal
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- -But the point isn't to sell them on something right then and there. - -
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Abner Coimbre @@ -6264,20 +5884,10 @@ But the point isn't to sell them on something right then and there.
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Abner Coimbre
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- -The point is build relationships. Genuine professional friendships because they respect what you're working on, and hopefully you respect and learn about their stuff too. - -
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Abner Coimbre @@ -6806,20 +6416,10 @@ Someone make a rolodex software with notes and grabs convos from every platform
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- -We probably should have talked about networking from the start. It's quite important - -
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demetrispanos @@ -7119,20 +6719,10 @@ this is an article from a friend of mine who, amusingly, wrote this as a consequ
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Abner Coimbre
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- -That makes sense. Here are some numbers from Handmade Seattle 2021: I believe I spoke to 80 to 85 speakers because most of them would say no. - -
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Abner Coimbre @@ -7176,21 +6766,10 @@ That makes sense. Here are some numbers from Handmade Seattle 2021: I believe I
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Abner Coimbre
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- -These are genuine and heartfelt meetings that I have with people. The conference was still a success, but notice the churn rate. It was high (for an up-and-coming conference, at least.) This is normal. - - (edited) -
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Abner Coimbre @@ -7270,20 +6849,10 @@ These are genuine and heartfelt meetings that I have with people. The conference
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- -You mentioned the conference got a bump when banning language talks, how big was this bump roughly? Personally I like when companies are principled to their core purpose and assume this is what resonated in the network you built. - -
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Abner Coimbre @@ -7435,20 +7004,10 @@ You mentioned the conference got a bump when banning language talks, how big was
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- -It's possible that the correlation with more sales is a result of the attention the conference got in general, independent of the controversial decision! - -
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Abner Coimbre @@ -7581,20 +7140,10 @@ oh I meant more of a percentage, not exact values, but understandable if you don
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- -That's an interesting question. @Nick Seavert - JangaFX how comfortable are we supposed to be, as entrepreneurs, with sharing financials? - -
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Nick Seavert - JangaFX @@ -7719,21 +7268,10 @@ That's an interesting question.
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- -I don't tell exact numbers or things anymore. I told someone and they stabbed me in the back and it hurt a lot. Destroyed what I thought was a friendship - - (edited) -
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Abner Coimbre @@ -8326,20 +7864,10 @@ I'm curious what the initial JangaFX demos looked like and what
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- -https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1WD3K_cCSM - -
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Andrew (azmr) @@ -8366,20 +7894,10 @@ I'm curious what the initial JangaFX demos looked like and what
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- -how long into development was this and what features did you exclude in the process of getting there? - -
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Nick Seavert - JangaFX @@ -8447,20 +7965,10 @@ how long into development was this and what features did you exclude in
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- -Isn't that what we called the beta? XD - -
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Nick Seavert - JangaFX @@ -8633,20 +8141,10 @@ how long into development was this and what features did you exclude in
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Abner Coimbre
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- -Here's another interesting question for the people who have hired contractors or employees. (This was a discussion I was having with @Allen4th recently.) If the person you hired has their own side projects, and they tell you about it (C.Y.A. aka Cover Your Ass), how concerned are you about intellectual property, conflicts of interest, etc.? - -
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Nick Seavert - JangaFX @@ -8874,20 +8372,10 @@ How do you ensure they feel like you won't sue them, and how do you ensure you f
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demetrispanos
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- -obviously your contract should have standard terms like non-disclosure, and IP/copyright assignment - -
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Nick Seavert - JangaFX @@ -9160,20 +8648,10 @@ Started out as "hey i'm doing this thing, would you want it to be a jangafx proj
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- -Lets not forget this person has a small stake in the company and has financial incentives in including it in our portfolio. Taking an arbitrary employee's idea and running with isn't as easy without proper compensation - -
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Nick Seavert - JangaFX @@ -9252,20 +8730,10 @@ Lets not forget this person has a small stake in the company and has financial i
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philliptrudeau
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- -Like Google Stadia! - -
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Nick Seavert - JangaFX @@ -10469,20 +9937,10 @@ if I'm paying for you to build it, I own it, end of story
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- -Speaking of contracts. Our initial setup wasn't exactly top notch xD - -
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Nick Seavert - JangaFX @@ -10709,21 +10167,10 @@ Speaking of contracts. Our initial setup wasn't exactly top notch xD
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- -It's kind of like the time we wrote a letter to the IRS telling them that we were sorry and they let us off the hook - - (edited) -
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Abner Coimbre @@ -10746,20 +10193,10 @@ It's kind of like the time we wrote a letter to the IRS telling them that we wer
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- -I have gotten into hot water with the tax man. - -
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Abner Coimbre @@ -10783,21 +10220,10 @@ I have gotten into hot water with the tax man.
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- -In August they closed my business account and revoked my license 😬 - - (edited) -
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Abner Coimbre @@ -11218,6 +10644,34 @@ What is a handmade programmer to do? +
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+ Andrew (azmr) + + + Oct 01, 2022 12:21 PM +
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- -I think this can segue into something very near and dear to my heart. Let's say there are projects you want to do, that at a technical level will clearly be a benefit to a lot of people, but there's very little obvious way to commoditize them? - -For example, say you're building something in the core tool chain like a programming language, object file format, debug file format, linker, etc. Producing documentation for existing formats, utility libraries to make better analysis of these kinds of data, etc. etc. When I look at these sorts of projects the biggest problem is that they cost money to build but I see no way to make money from them without killing the entire benefit of the project, which is making it more likely that all the software out there dealing with this core tool chain works well. - -What is a handmade programmer to do? - -
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- -"this statement was sponsored by Microsoft" - -
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Abner Coimbre @@ -11704,21 +11106,10 @@ What is a handmade programmer to do?
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- -on the assumption that people here err towards doing things themselves... I think it's worth paying attention to which components of your product are core to its main selling point and strongly considering using pre-existing components for everything else - - (edited) -
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Abner Coimbre @@ -11933,22 +11324,10 @@ I don't regret learning Vulkan, but it prevented me from iterating on interestin
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- - Click to see attachment - πŸ–ΌοΈ - - -
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Nick Seavert - JangaFX @@ -12088,20 +11467,10 @@ Is this the double-edged sword
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- -Some handmade software you can build β€œfrom scraps” instead of from scratch, where you judiciously and carefully adopt complexity where you want/need it (handmade libraries help a lot there) - -
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Abner Coimbre @@ -12323,29 +11692,10 @@ So you don't build everything from scratch with WhiteBox? Only parts you conside
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Andrew (azmr)
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- -ha, well... just having a look at our list of submodules: -- a bunch of internal things that got pulled out -- Dear Imgui - very useful for bootstrapping UI, although we may end up doing our own at some point -- @herose's command-line argument parser -- sheredom/json.h - we only use small quantities of JSON, this is a good simple library and it's not worth my time to make a custom one -- mattiasgustavsson's thread library (good bootstrap, may change) -- stb (enough said) -- tinyfiledialogs - a useful OS-agnostic bootstrap, may change -- SQLite - Dan Luu's article on file writing freaked me out a bit and I wanted to make sure we had something that worked reliably -- LLVM & Clang - core to the tool, but writing a better full C++ compiler is not really feasible for me... and even if it was we'd have to replicate Clang's functionality - -
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Nick Seavert - JangaFX @@ -12423,20 +11773,10 @@ ha, well... just having a look at our list of submodules:
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- -UI is like 80% of the work - -
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Andrew (azmr) @@ -12683,20 +12023,10 @@ on the assumption that people here err towards doing things themselves... I thin
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- -I think this is the primary tension between handmade and doing business (at least in the for-profit way). If I have a product that I want to ship and I'm willing to go with "good enough" here and "good enough" there to get it done, I have a better chance of ending up with a successful product on time. But if I want to chase down every opportunity to make better components, I could be making it possible for better products to exist in the future, but have a much harder time making that a traditional for-profit business. What does everyone think about this? - -
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Nick Seavert - JangaFX @@ -13030,20 +12360,10 @@ I think this is the primary tension between handmade and doing business (at leas
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- -Yes I understand that's the problem! The question is if the motivation is to do the project, rather than to be a business, how do I move forward? How do I use entrepreneurship as a means rather than as the end? - -
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bvisness @@ -13097,6 +12417,33 @@ Yes I understand that's the problem! The question is if the motivation is to do +
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- bvisness - - - Oct 01, 2022 12:39 PM -
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- and it will take us a while to get there - -
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- -what might a "brand" look like in this context? I don't really follow - -
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Nick Seavert - JangaFX @@ -13477,7 +12787,7 @@ what might a "brand" look like in this context? I don't really follow
- Think John Carmack + Think John Carmack
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- -what happened to separate business from personal stuff πŸ˜› - -
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Nick Seavert - JangaFX @@ -14053,20 +13353,10 @@ what happened to separate business from personal stuff
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- -Being a content creator is almost a full-time job. I interviewed Randy recently (Professor Rework) and he burned out even though he amassed ~300k YouTube subscribers and could make videos that pulled in 1.1M views - -
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Abner Coimbre @@ -14093,20 +13383,10 @@ Being a content creator is almost a full-time job. I interviewed Randy recently
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Abner Coimbre
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- -He even admitted that making videos about a feature he added took significantly longer than actually adding that feature. - -
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Abner Coimbre @@ -14389,20 +13669,10 @@ I do to. That's why I'm asking. Applying handmade as a way to make a better busi
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Zeanith
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- -I believe this is what @Nick Seavert - JangaFX mentioned about the "other half" of the problem. One needs to market, promote, have an ego if you will about your passion project publicly. Clearly state the value proposition and demonstrate it. I'm curious how JangaFX went from zero to one. It was basically a passion project with the beginning $300. Who was the first customer and how did you attract them? - -
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Nick Seavert - JangaFX @@ -14743,21 +14013,10 @@ Building our email list was so, so integral to our success
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demetrispanos
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- -may I suggest (hat tip to my friend @simp) zukowski's series on "how to market a game", which is actually generally applicable - - (edited) -
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philliptrudeau @@ -14766,7 +14025,7 @@ may I suggest (hat tip to my friend
- ☝🏻 We followed this model closely for Happenlance starting out. + ☝ We followed this model closely for Happenlance starting out.
@@ -14817,20 +14076,10 @@ Building our email list was so, so integral to our success
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Allen4th
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- -Can you elaborate on what this means? I hear people say it a lot. What's an email list, how do you build it, and what does it do for you? - -
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demetrispanos @@ -15180,20 +14429,10 @@ Can you elaborate on what this means? I hear people say it a lot. What's an emai
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Allen4th
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- -I find all this interesting. The "brand" approach is the only real idea I've had for achieving what I'm looking to achieve. I sort of expected ya'll would say there was a much better route, and instead it sounds like you're thinking the same thing. - -
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bvisness @@ -15315,20 +14554,10 @@ Yes, once again, you can use your programming skills for this.
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Abner Coimbre
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- -Yes, once again, you can use your programming skills for this. - -
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Andrew (azmr) @@ -15367,20 +14596,10 @@ Yes, once again, you can use your programming skills for this.
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Andrew (azmr)
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- -obligatory XKCD 'Automating' comes from the roots 'auto-' meaning 'self-', and 'mating', meaning 'screwing'. - -
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Abner Coimbre @@ -15527,20 +14746,10 @@ I believe this is what
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- -There's a story behind it. Met a guy in whole foods bread isle. We talked and i went to his office. I toured his software company office and he said he wanted to see my website. He saw my pricing, told me to open my wallet. I did, no money in it. He said you see your pricing? You see your wallet? Now you know why you're broke. - -
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Andrew (azmr) @@ -15603,20 +14812,10 @@ Also its important to charge what you're worth. We were selling VectorayGen back
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Andrew (azmr)
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- -yeah pricing is something we haven't gone into much, and it's something of a dark art - -
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demetrispanos @@ -15886,20 +15085,10 @@ Can you elaborate on what this means? I hear people say it a lot. What's an emai
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mv
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- -If you sell to businesses in particular you'll find they can be quite rational about (high) pricing, if you're persistent and confident enough. Individuals are much trickier - -
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demetrispanos @@ -16029,20 +15218,10 @@ yeah pricing is something we haven't gone into much, and it's something of a dar
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Abner Coimbre
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- -I asked a question about pricing to the creators of Basecamp and Hey Mail! They answer it here (you can Ctrl+F for Abner): https://www.rework.fm/sell-your-by-products-season-2/ - -
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Abner Coimbre @@ -16234,20 +15413,10 @@ well its not necessarily the only way.
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Allen4th
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- -I was trying to ask "what do you do when you don't see how to generate income?" expecting advice on how to monetize things that don't seem easy to monetize. Instead everyone said, "if you must do such a project, you'll need a brand." Suggesting to me that my intuition that these things can't be income generators was right after all. - -
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Zeanith @@ -16274,20 +15443,10 @@ I was trying to ask "what do you do when you don't see how to generate income?"
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Allen4th
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- -I was trying to ask "what do you do when you don't see how to generate income?" expecting advice on how to monetize things that don't seem easy to monetize. Instead everyone said, "if you must do such a project, you'll need a brand." Suggesting to me that my intuition that these things can't be income generators was right after all. - -
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philliptrudeau @@ -16364,21 +15523,10 @@ I was trying to ask "what do you do when you don't see how to generate income?"
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Nick Seavert - JangaFX
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- -For programmers a good way to think about it is: Is it cheaper to buy your product than to build it themselves - - (edited) -
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demetrispanos @@ -16439,20 +15587,10 @@ For programmers a good way to think about it is: Is it cheaper to buy your produ
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mv
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- -If your tool saves a VFX artist 100s of hours a year in waiting and wasted time, and improves productivity and throughput of said artist, is your tool worth \$20/month or \$200/year? - -
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mv @@ -16596,20 +15734,10 @@ and there are mechanistic ways to become good at selling
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Andrew (azmr)
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- -any particular pointers, sensei? - -
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demetrispanos @@ -17647,20 +16775,10 @@ perhaps you can use the no-spare-money-people as a marketing force
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bvisness
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- -see: giving your product away to students for free - -
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Andrew (azmr) @@ -17728,20 +16846,10 @@ definitionally, people with no spare money cannot give you any
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mv
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- -Directly. Potentially indirect value - -
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demetrispanos