10761 lines
435 KiB
HTML
10761 lines
435 KiB
HTML
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="bvisness#0001" data-user-id="132715550571888640">bvisness</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 10:59 AM</span>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">It is that time again!</span>
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 11:00 AM">11:00</div>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve"><strong>Topic:</strong> How to design to avoid configuration</span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="bvisness#0001" data-user-id="132715550571888640">bvisness</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 11:00 AM</span>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve"><span class="chatlog__markdown-mention">#fishbowl-audience</span> conversation begins here: <a href="https://discord.com/channels/239737791225790464/708458209131757598/820371782115655750" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '820371782115655750')">https://discord.com/channels/239737791225790464/708458209131757598/820371782115655750</a>
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So, this topic was prompted by a message from <span class="chatlog__markdown-mention" title="demetrispanos#5588">@demetrispanos</span> a while ago about configuration in software design. I'll let him introduce the topic in a bit (and give everyone their fishbowl role), but I just wanted to introduce the subject quickly so everyone is on the same page.</span>
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<span class="chatlog__edited-timestamp" title="19-Mar-21 07:47 AM">(edited)</span>
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 11:01 AM">11:01</div>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">So Demetri's original message was:
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<div class="chatlog__markdown-quote"><div class="chatlog__markdown-quote-border"></div><div class="chatlog__markdown-quote-content">I am anti-configuration, and in fact consider configuration a bug not a feature. The designer should just make it good to begin with.</div></div></span>
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 11:02 AM">11:02</div>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">And this got me thinking about configuration in software in general. The full pitch for this topic can be found here: <a href="https://github.com/AsafGartner/hmn_fishbowl/discussions/22" target="_blank">https://github.com/AsafGartner/hmn_fishbowl/discussions/22</a></span>
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 11:03 AM">11:03</div>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">So some of the questions we're interested in are:
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- What is "configuration"; how do we identify it?
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- Why do we have it, what are the upsides and downsides?
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- How do we design software in a way that avoids it as much as possible?
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- If we do have configuration, why, and how can we make it not suck?</span>
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 11:03 AM">11:03</div>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve"><span class="chatlog__markdown-mention" title="demetrispanos#5588">@demetrispanos</span> has some initial thoughts, so at this point I'll let him open while I give everyone else the fishbowl role.</span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 11:04 AM</span>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">ok thanks ben, I will paste a short text here summarizing where I'm coming from</span>
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 11:05 AM">11:05</div>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I tried a few other options and pasting an image from my editor seems the least-bad among bad options given the formatting on different devices</span>
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<a href="files/unknown-336C5.png" target="_blank">
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 11:05 AM">11:05</div>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">just to be clear, I'm not arguing that one never needs configuration</span>
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 11:06 AM">11:06</div>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">but I've found this spectrum useful in thinking about what input I'm demanding from a user</span>
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 11:06 AM">11:06</div>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">and I consider configuration a cost, because no one comes to your app because they want to configure stuff</span>
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 11:06 AM">11:06</div>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">it may be a worthwhile cost if adding the configuration allows the user to access a valuable set of features that otherwise wouldn't be possible, or appropriate</span>
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 11:07 AM">11:07</div>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">but ultimately it is a cost, and needs to justify its presence ... it has no value on its own</span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="bvisness#0001" data-user-id="132715550571888640">bvisness</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 11:08 AM</span>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I like the terminology you're using here, I think it will be helpful throughout this conversation</span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="KawaiiKiwi#8166" data-user-id="170376556173066241">Voran</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 11:09 AM</span>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">One thing that I definitely think I agree on is the 'separate channel' point. Configuration files are generally not great, nobody wants to use them. What reasons would someone have as a developer to have that, instead of providing the option inside the program itself?</span>
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 11:10 AM">11:10</div>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">At the very least, one could argue that you should be able to change anything you can change inside a config file from inside the actual software while it's running (similar to how options typically work)</span>
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<span class="chatlog__edited-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 11:10 AM">(edited)</span>
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<div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="KawaiiKiwi#8166">Voran</div>
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<span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '820372996132569110')">
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One thing that I definitely think I agree on is the 'separate channel' point. Configuration files are generally not great, nobody wants to use them. What reasons would someone have as a developer to have that, instead of providing the option inside the program itself? </span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 11:10 AM</span>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">a common motivation for this is "headless" software like web servers</span>
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 11:10 AM">11:10</div>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">though you could imagine a web server that accepts config input over an http request</span>
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<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/8bbce81d74ba142434988d9baee7f26e-1DC70.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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<div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="KawaiiKiwi#8166">Voran</div>
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<span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '820373155495280681')">
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At the very least, one could argue that you should be able to change anything you can change inside a config file from inside the actual software while it's running (similar to how options typically work) </span>
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<span class="chatlog__reference-edited-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 11:10 AM">(edited)</span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title=".bmp#5134" data-user-id="327294362134511619">.bmp</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 11:11 AM</span>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">To this point you can easily imagine (within some standardized config format) having an external configuration program</span>
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 11:12 AM">11:12</div>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Something that provides a better config experience, and can serve multiple programs</span>
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<img class="chatlog__emoji chatlog__emoji--small" alt="💯" src="files/1f4af-2188D.svg" loading="lazy">
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<span class="chatlog__reaction-count">1</span>
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 11:12 AM">11:12</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">But I think more importantly here, having something like config text files or over-configurability in general usually indicates a design failure</span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 11:13 AM</span>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">going back to "config as cost", we can combine that with the "designer should just make it good" part and ask ... <em>why</em> is the designer shoving this cost on me?</span>
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<div class="chatlog__reference">
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<img class="chatlog__reference-avatar" src="files/8bbce81d74ba142434988d9baee7f26e-1DC70.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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<div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title=".bmp#5134">.bmp</div>
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<div class="chatlog__reference-content">
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<span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '820373864399765566')">
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But I think more importantly here, having something like config text files or over-configurability in general usually indicates a design failure </span>
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</div>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="bvisness#0001" data-user-id="132715550571888640">bvisness</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 11:14 AM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Yes, I think that regardless of your UI for configuration, there are still a lot of downsides. However, maybe better config UX can push it toward "options" in Demetri's terminology?</span>
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</div>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title=".bmp#5134" data-user-id="327294362134511619">.bmp</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 11:14 AM</span>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Many times it's a straight-up <em>avoidance</em> of design</span>
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 11:14 AM">11:14</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Because there is no designer</span>
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 11:14 AM">11:14</div>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Only programmer(s)</span>
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-820374349797916733" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="820374349797916733">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 11:14 AM">11:14</div>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Who are often both a) design-phobic and b) config-happy</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__reference">
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<img class="chatlog__reference-avatar" src="files/8bbce81d74ba142434988d9baee7f26e-1DC70.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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<div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title=".bmp#5134">.bmp</div>
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<div class="chatlog__reference-content">
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<span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '820374230473769011')">
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Many times it's a straight-up <em>avoidance</em> of design </span>
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</div>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 11:15 AM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">yes absolutely true, that systems with elaborate configuration often are trying not to take any stand on what should be good practice or preferred</span>
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<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/8bbce81d74ba142434988d9baee7f26e-1DC70.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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</div>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title=".bmp#5134" data-user-id="327294362134511619">.bmp</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 11:15 AM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">As opposed to the average end-user who, excepting some circumstances for power users with heavily-used software, just want the thing to work well out of the box with default configuration and only want to edit trivial things like color scheme, if anything at all</span>
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 11:17 AM">11:17</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Now with perfect configurability this wouldn't be <em>that bad</em> since other users could distribute good configs, but more configurability doesn't just mean less-designed defaults, it generally means a less-designed and less coherent system overall</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 11:17 AM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I should mention one area where "config files" are a generally desired solution, which is when you want to do reproducible automated deployments/builds</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title=".bmp#5134" data-user-id="327294362134511619">.bmp</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 11:17 AM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Configurability is genericity</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__reference">
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<img class="chatlog__reference-avatar" src="files/89747c254631bcfd05c5c3e7141389aa-A1FB9.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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<div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588">demetrispanos</div>
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<div class="chatlog__reference-content">
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<span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '820375001743097897')">
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I should mention one area where "config files" are a generally desired solution, which is when you want to do reproducible automated deployments/builds </span>
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</div>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title=".bmp#5134" data-user-id="327294362134511619">.bmp</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 11:18 AM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">In this case I would almost not call them config files - at that point it's just an API technically</span>
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<div class="chatlog__reference-symbol"></div>
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<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/1963eacbf364164efce1c597dc66aeab-E6901.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__reference">
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<img class="chatlog__reference-avatar" src="files/89747c254631bcfd05c5c3e7141389aa-A1FB9.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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<div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588">demetrispanos</div>
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<div class="chatlog__reference-content">
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<span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '820375001743097897')">
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I should mention one area where "config files" are a generally desired solution, which is when you want to do reproducible automated deployments/builds </span>
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</div>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="bvisness#0001" data-user-id="132715550571888640">bvisness</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 11:18 AM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Even in these situations though, you can still avoid many configuration values in the first place</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title=".bmp#5134">.bmp</div>
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In this case I would almost not call them config files - at that point it's just an API technically </span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 11:18 AM</span>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">yeah I agree that at this point it is moving toward "essential input"</span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 11:18 AM</span>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">for example, if you want to ship an app and pin some particular library dependency, that is now essential</span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="bvisness#0001" data-user-id="132715550571888640">bvisness</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 11:18 AM</span>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">actually yeah that's a good point</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 11:18 AM</span>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">within your terminology, that is the primary channel of input</span>
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<span class="chatlog__edited-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 11:19 AM">(edited)</span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 11:18 AM</span>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">right, so whether it's "configuration" is context-dependent</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 11:19 AM</span>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I think that's an interesting and important distinction, because I would certainly tend to class webserver parameters as "config files"</span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="KawaiiKiwi#8166" data-user-id="170376556173066241">Voran</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 11:20 AM</span>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I think that there can't be the expectation that the end-user ever <em>has</em> to interact with a configuration at all, for the program to work well. In which case, you have to really have something of value that's gained from the different configuration. What are the power users actually getting out of the configuration? If it's "the program works better for this use case", you should probably find a better way to make it work better for that use case out of the box</span>
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<div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="bvisness#0001">bvisness</div>
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I think that's an interesting and important distinction, because I would certainly tend to class webserver parameters as "config files" </span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 11:20 AM</span>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">yeah and yet we feel very differently about an nginx.conf vs a vimrc</span>
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<span class="chatlog__reaction-count">4</span>
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<div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="KawaiiKiwi#8166">Voran</div>
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I think that there can't be the expectation that the end-user ever <em>has</em> to interact with a configuration at all, for the program to work well. In which case, you have to really have something of value that's gained from the different configuration. What are the power users actually getting out of the configuration? If it's "the program works better for this use case", you should probably find a better way to make it work better for that use case out of the box </span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title=".bmp#5134" data-user-id="327294362134511619">.bmp</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 11:20 AM</span>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Yeah there is a philosophical underpinning to this</span>
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 11:20 AM">11:20</div>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">A "fear" of design</span>
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 11:20 AM">11:20</div>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Because design means constraints</span>
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 11:21 AM">11:21</div>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">And constraints mean "not equally good for everyone"</span>
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 11:22 AM">11:22</div>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Which means even if the design is great you'll have some fraction of 4/5 star users complaining about certain aspects of the design</span>
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 11:22 AM">11:22</div>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">The proper response very well may be "too bad"</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 11:22 AM</span>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">But many companies (or individuals, or whatever) have a very hard time not giving undue significance to the squeaky wheel</span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 11:22 AM</span>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve"><div class="chatlog__markdown-quote"><div class="chatlog__markdown-quote-border"></div><div class="chatlog__markdown-quote-content">What are the power users actually getting out of the configuration
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</div></div>I was tempted to add a category to my taxonomy, and hesitated because it was a bit of a joke, but maybe it's worth mentioning ... there's a category of configuration I'd call "nerdsniping bait"</span>
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 11:22 AM">11:22</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">things that actually make almost no difference and yet waste an hour of many people's time getting it <em>juuuuust</em> right</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 11:23 AM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">and the collective cost across all of society is on the scale months or years of lost productivity if the application is popular</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="bvisness#0001" data-user-id="132715550571888640">bvisness</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 11:24 AM</span>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">That style of configuration I hope we can all agree is a bad thing, a failure of design. Although, I'd be curious to know if you have a concrete example in mind.</span>
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<div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="bvisness#0001">bvisness</div>
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<span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '820376755243974656')">
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That style of configuration I hope we can all agree is a bad thing, a failure of design. Although, I'd be curious to know if you have a concrete example in mind. </span>
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 11:24 AM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">unfortunately one person's nerdsnipe is another person's important ergonomics</span>
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 11:25 AM">11:25</div>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">speaking personally, I find editor color schemes to be a huge waste of life</span>
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 11:25 AM">11:25</div>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">pick one and use it, then go do something useful</span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="bvisness#0001" data-user-id="132715550571888640">bvisness</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 11:25 AM</span>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve"><em>rob pike intensifies</em></span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 11:25 AM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">but I know people who have easily spent 10+ hours pondering and evaluating color schemes</span>
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<span class="chatlog__edited-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 11:25 AM">(edited)</span>
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<div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="bvisness#0001">bvisness</div>
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<div class="chatlog__reference-content">
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<span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '820376991495749663')">
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<em>rob pike intensifies</em> </span>
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title=".bmp#5134" data-user-id="327294362134511619">.bmp</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 11:27 AM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Well no Pike is even worse to where he considers color schemes literally net negative haha</span>
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-820377482934878270" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="820377482934878270">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 11:27 AM">11:27</div>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Which is basically an unsupportable position</span>
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-820377617819107338" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="820377617819107338">
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<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/1963eacbf364164efce1c597dc66aeab-E6901.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="bvisness#0001" data-user-id="132715550571888640">bvisness</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 11:27 AM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">true, but for the sake of focus let's keep pikebashing to <span class="chatlog__markdown-mention">#fishbowl-audience</span> <img loading="lazy" class="chatlog__emoji " alt="😛" title="stuck_out_tongue" src="files\twemoji_1f61b.svg"></span>
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-820377634839724063" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="820377634839724063">
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 11:27 AM">11:27</div>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">leave my dumb joke be</span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 11:27 AM</span>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">anyway I don't want to derail too much on the nerdsnipe aspect, I think it's worth considering but it's not really the heart of the problem</span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="KawaiiKiwi#8166" data-user-id="170376556173066241">Voran</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 11:31 AM</span>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I guess to bring it back to the core of 'provide something good out of the box', I've personally felt that the appearance of your program should either be handcrafted, or inherit its appearance from other programs for the sake of consistency. People need to approach the visual aspect as a design decision, and make something that is nice for the majority of users instead of trying to make it perfect for everyone.</span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="bvisness#0001" data-user-id="132715550571888640">bvisness</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 11:32 AM</span>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Yeah, and to Demetri's point I think aesthetic stuff is easily the worst cost-to-benefit ratio of anything you could let users configure</span>
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 11:32 AM">11:32</div>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">So it provides a very obvious initial example of something the author should just design. And actually I think even your "power" users might appreciate having the decision made for them too, in the end.</span>
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</div>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title=".bmp#5134" data-user-id="327294362134511619">.bmp</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 11:32 AM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Well, from a mechanical perspective sure</span>
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<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/8bbce81d74ba142434988d9baee7f26e-1DC70.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title=".bmp#5134" data-user-id="327294362134511619">.bmp</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 11:33 AM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">But from a quality of life perspective spending 40 hours a week engaging with awful aesthetics is not great</span>
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-820378978450800670" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="820378978450800670">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/1963eacbf364164efce1c597dc66aeab-E6901.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="bvisness#0001" data-user-id="132715550571888640">bvisness</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 11:33 AM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Like how in the Go world, "go fmt is no one's favorite, but go fmt is everyone's favorite"</span>
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-820379041453703198" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="820379041453703198">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/1963eacbf364164efce1c597dc66aeab-E6901.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="bvisness#0001" data-user-id="132715550571888640">bvisness</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 11:33 AM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">When you have no power to change trivial things, you readily accept them</span>
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<div class="chatlog__reactions">
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<div class="chatlog__reaction" title="100">
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<img class="chatlog__emoji chatlog__emoji--small" alt="💯" src="files/1f4af-2188D.svg" loading="lazy">
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<span class="chatlog__reaction-count">1</span>
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</div>
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</div>
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-820379071062081537" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="820379071062081537">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 11:33 AM">11:33</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">and it clears your mind</span>
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-820379108579082240" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="820379108579082240">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/8bbce81d74ba142434988d9baee7f26e-1DC70.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title=".bmp#5134" data-user-id="327294362134511619">.bmp</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 11:33 AM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">(That said of course just providing good aesthetics out of the box with minimal tweaking required/allowed is ideal)</span>
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</div>
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-820379356773875752" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="820379356773875752">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/1963eacbf364164efce1c597dc66aeab-E6901.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="bvisness#0001" data-user-id="132715550571888640">bvisness</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 11:34 AM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Yeah aesthetics do matter, but <em>configurable</em> aesthetics are clearly a waste of time. Enough people are broadly <s>designed</s> aligned on aesthetics anyway that you can just make a good decision pretty easily.</span>
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<span class="chatlog__edited-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 11:36 AM">(edited)</span>
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</div>
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-820379396203741224" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="820379396203741224">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 11:34 AM">11:34</div>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">(Perhaps with lightweight options for the edges of that space.)</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-group">
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-820379512172707922" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="820379512172707922">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/8bbce81d74ba142434988d9baee7f26e-1DC70.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title=".bmp#5134" data-user-id="327294362134511619">.bmp</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 11:35 AM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Well no most programmers have bottom of the barrel aesthetic sensibilities</span>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-820379548939583489" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="820379548939583489">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 11:35 AM">11:35</div>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">It's a real problem</span>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-820379603586908200" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="820379603586908200">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 11:35 AM">11:35</div>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">And part of why the most programmery software is the worst aesthetically</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-group">
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-820379605268430898" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="820379605268430898">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/1963eacbf364164efce1c597dc66aeab-E6901.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="bvisness#0001" data-user-id="132715550571888640">bvisness</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 11:35 AM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I'm talking about what aesthetics people <em>like</em>, not what people will think to create</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-group">
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-820379647354077194" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="820379647354077194">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/b032bf22b6696de1f403e43c3bdd4613-55F4A.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="KawaiiKiwi#8166" data-user-id="170376556173066241">Voran</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 11:35 AM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve"><div class="chatlog__markdown-quote"><div class="chatlog__markdown-quote-border"></div><div class="chatlog__markdown-quote-content"><em>configurable</em> aesthetics are clearly a waste of time
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</div></div>I agree, but to use demitri's terminology, I do think that<em>optional</em> aesthetics have a lot of value to them</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-group">
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-820379721757229136" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="820379721757229136">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/8bbce81d74ba142434988d9baee7f26e-1DC70.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title=".bmp#5134" data-user-id="327294362134511619">.bmp</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 11:36 AM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Oh well you said "broadly designed" at first and threw me off <img loading="lazy" class="chatlog__emoji " alt="😛" title="stuck_out_tongue" src="files\twemoji_1f61b.svg"></span>
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<div class="chatlog__message-group">
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-820379832160223232" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="820379832160223232">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/1963eacbf364164efce1c597dc66aeab-E6901.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="bvisness#0001" data-user-id="132715550571888640">bvisness</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 11:36 AM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">yes I apologize for a stupid typo</span>
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</div>
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-820379849951805451" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="820379849951805451">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 11:36 AM">11:36</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I meant aligned</span>
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<div class="chatlog__message-group">
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-820380101316313088" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="820380101316313088">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/b032bf22b6696de1f403e43c3bdd4613-55F4A.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="KawaiiKiwi#8166" data-user-id="170376556173066241">Voran</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 11:37 AM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">If Discord were to have a team of artists come up with 5 new themes, there's a pretty good chance they could come up with something I'd like. Maybe one with rainbow highlights, maybe one that uses pastels. But if they gave me the ability to spend that time to do it myself, I would take a lot more time than the artists to make something way worse.</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__reactions">
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<div class="chatlog__reaction" title="thumbsup">
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<img class="chatlog__emoji chatlog__emoji--small" alt="👍" src="files/1f44d-B3F5F.svg" loading="lazy">
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<span class="chatlog__reaction-count">2</span>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-820380332036456508" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="820380332036456508">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 11:38 AM">11:38</div>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">And the effort would be duplicated by anyone who wants the same thing as me, leading to a much higher cost</span>
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<span class="chatlog__edited-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 11:38 AM">(edited)</span>
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</div>
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</div>
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-820380533024227368" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="820380533024227368">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 11:39 AM">11:39</div>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">So the option is definitely a valuable thing to have, but you can't make it into work for your users.</span>
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<span class="chatlog__edited-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 11:39 AM">(edited)</span>
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-820380687525085194" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="820380687525085194">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/1963eacbf364164efce1c597dc66aeab-E6901.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="bvisness#0001" data-user-id="132715550571888640">bvisness</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 11:39 AM</span>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Yep, for sure, and I think a critical part of Demetri's opening ideas is that we need to consider the cost it puts on our users.</span>
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 11:40 AM">11:40</div>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">So what about stuff that is a little more critical than aesthetics?</span>
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 11:40 AM">11:40</div>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">We can probably continue to consider configurable editors if we want to think of some concrete examples.</span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="Wayward#3376" data-user-id="366605940524580867">Wayward</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 11:41 AM</span>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">different countries have different keyboard layouts, and not necessarily all the keys that are well placed on an US keyboard is decent on a scandinavian keyboard</span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="bvisness#0001" data-user-id="132715550571888640">bvisness</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 11:42 AM</span>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Ok, so things like keymappings are maybe a more directly beneficial piece of config. But there again there is strong value in good design up front (otherwise all your mappings are two-keystroke things like shift-F6, ctrl-U)</span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="Wayward#3376" data-user-id="366605940524580867">Wayward</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 11:43 AM</span>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">and there's uncommon cases of color blindness, no point in using a text editor if the user can't see the text</span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="bvisness#0001" data-user-id="132715550571888640">bvisness</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 11:43 AM</span>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Ok, so those are benefits, but if we're considering costs, how much cost does it put on users? And what can affect that cost?</span>
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 11:44 AM">11:44</div>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">As with everything in programming, the benefits are obvious in isolation.</span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="KawaiiKiwi#8166" data-user-id="170376556173066241">Voran</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 11:44 AM</span>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I believe that it should be possible to detect the user's keyboard layout, right? If your keybindings are more positional, if you see a need to support more keyboard layouts, you should be able to have things 'just work' instead of having the user get things working themselves</span>
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 11:44 AM">11:44</div>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Color blindness is also something that you can design for; using patterns and high contrast instead of relying on color to differentiate things</span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="bvisness#0001" data-user-id="132715550571888640">bvisness</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 11:45 AM</span>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Yes, so in both of these examples a lot of the user cost could be mitigated by good up-front design.</span>
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 11:45 AM">11:45</div>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">So design is still an important factor even when the system is configurable. And if you're already being forced to design things, at some point you have to question whether the fringe benefits offset the cost of allowing config.</span>
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 11:46 AM">11:46</div>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Because there's another aspect of config Demetri brought up in his intro, which is fragmentation</span>
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 11:46 AM">11:46</div>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Things that are configurable will vary between users, and will be more work for the software author to support, but will also result in less sharing of understanding between users.</span>
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 11:47 AM">11:47</div>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">At the extremes, the way you work may be totally different, aesthetically and functionally, from another user of the "same" software.</span>
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 11:48 AM">11:48</div>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Aesthetic configuration doesn't really cause meaningful fragmentation, but functional configuration certainly can.</span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="KawaiiKiwi#8166" data-user-id="170376556173066241">Voran</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 11:49 AM</span>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">That's a very good point. If you're learning to use a piece of software through someone who has done an amount of configuration, you'll have to do the same configuration to follow along in a lot of cases</span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="bvisness#0001" data-user-id="132715550571888640">bvisness</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 11:49 AM</span>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">You see this in the extreme in Vim and friends, where the people who teach Vim forget the extent to which they have modified the system, added conveniences, changed subtle parameters years ago.</span>
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 11:50 AM">11:50</div>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">You see it in shells too, where people have vast networks of aliases.</span>
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 11:50 AM">11:50</div>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">And the result is really that the system the power users use is fundamentally different from the original system.</span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="KawaiiKiwi#8166" data-user-id="170376556173066241">Voran</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 11:53 AM</span>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">One question to ask might be "Is the system the power users use <em>better</em>?", because they might actually be making something far easier to do than it was before. For instance, while not exactly a configuration per say, I have a startup script that I've been working on recently, which has reduced the time it takes for me to open up everything that I typically have open from an hour or two to about 30 seconds.</span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title=".bmp#5134" data-user-id="327294362134511619">.bmp</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 11:54 AM</span>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Actually re: just detecting things instead of user configuration, one of the most common frustrations I run into as a software user is programs that don't use global configuration or interoperability when they trivially could</span>
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 11:54 AM">11:54</div>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">For example not detecting the system setting for light/dark theme</span>
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<img class="chatlog__emoji chatlog__emoji--small" alt="☝️" src="files/261d-3A498.svg" loading="lazy">
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<span class="chatlog__reaction-count">1</span>
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 11:54 AM">11:54</div>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I can set my system settings on that to change based on the time of day</span>
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 11:55 AM">11:55</div>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">But 80% of programs won't follow suit</span>
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 11:55 AM">11:55</div>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">(Or more)</span>
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 11:56 AM">11:56</div>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I don't want to configure that on a per-program basis, and it also makes my total configuration more fragile and less automatable</span>
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<div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="KawaiiKiwi#8166">Voran</div>
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One question to ask might be "Is the system the power users use <em>better</em>?", because they might actually be making something far easier to do than it was before. For instance, while not exactly a configuration per say, I have a startup script that I've been working on recently, which has reduced the time it takes for me to open up everything that I typically have open from an hour or two to about 30 seconds. </span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="bvisness#0001" data-user-id="132715550571888640">bvisness</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 11:56 AM</span>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">So is the system designed by the power users better <em>in general</em>, or better for specific cases that wouldn't apply to a large subset of the user base? Does it depend on the situation?</span>
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 11:57 AM">11:57</div>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">If the power user extensions result in a generally better system for everyone, then I feel like that stuff should be part of the base program and not even a part of the configuration. But if it's specific, then maybe there's not as much you can do and the configuration is actually providing real benefit to a subset of users.</span>
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<div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="bvisness#0001">bvisness</div>
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<span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '820385009171955773')">
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If the power user extensions result in a generally better system for everyone, then I feel like that stuff should be part of the base program and not even a part of the configuration. But if it's specific, then maybe there's not as much you can do and the configuration is actually providing real benefit to a subset of users. </span>
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 11:59 AM</span>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">a good example of this is vi motions, which I think are seen as power-user features from the outside but once you train with them a bit they prove their value even to beginners ... I would consider motions to be something you expect almost all vi/vim installations to use, and only very very rarely should they be configured differently or disabled</span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="Wayward#3376" data-user-id="366605940524580867">Wayward</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 11:59 AM</span>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">going off on another tangent, take tmux for example, the default tmux hotkey-combination to access it is by default ctrl+b, which causes you to move your whole damn arm to hit it, and it's used alot so it's really not well thought out default setting</span>
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<div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="bvisness#0001">bvisness</div>
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If the power user extensions result in a generally better system for everyone, then I feel like that stuff should be part of the base program and not even a part of the configuration. But if it's specific, then maybe there's not as much you can do and the configuration is actually providing real benefit to a subset of users. </span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="KawaiiKiwi#8166" data-user-id="170376556173066241">Voran</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 12:00 PM</span>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I suppose "better" isn't the right word here. It's not that it's better so much as that it provides a way to do things that would be difficult or time-consuming to do otherwise. Nobody will ever want my exact startup script, so a premade solution wouldn't help... except, wait, it actually would. If the operating system gave me a way to just list a bunch of programs I want to start up, with the options I need to open the right things automatically, then it would be far better than the batch file I use right now. What I'm saying is, look and see if what they're doing provides a benefit, and see if you can either create a simple, unified way to let your users do that sort of thing while shifting it closer to an option than a configuration.</span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="bvisness#0001" data-user-id="132715550571888640">bvisness</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 12:01 PM</span>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Right, and so even in a system where you benefit from configurability, the design of the base system still matters and can probably even reduce the amount of work you have to do in the configuration layer.</span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="KawaiiKiwi#8166" data-user-id="170376556173066241">Voran</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 12:01 PM</span>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Exactly</span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="bvisness#0001" data-user-id="132715550571888640">bvisness</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 12:02 PM</span>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">So I want to revisit a point <span class="chatlog__markdown-mention" title=".bmp#5134">@.bmp</span> said earlier:
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<div class="chatlog__markdown-quote"><div class="chatlog__markdown-quote-border"></div><div class="chatlog__markdown-quote-content">more configurability doesn't just mean less-designed defaults, it generally means a less-designed and less coherent system overall</div></div></span>
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 12:02 PM">12:02</div>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Configuration is at a minimum a bunch of knobs to turn, but I want to explore how the idea of configuration (and the idea that it is <em>good</em>) affects the design of systems overall.</span>
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 12:02 PM">12:02</div>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">What knobs do we even have?</span>
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<div class="chatlog__reference-symbol"></div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__reference">
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<img class="chatlog__reference-avatar" src="files/1963eacbf364164efce1c597dc66aeab-E6901.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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<div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="bvisness#0001">bvisness</div>
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<div class="chatlog__reference-content">
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<span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '820386254415462400')">
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So I want to revisit a point <span class="chatlog__markdown-mention" title=".bmp#5134">@.bmp</span> said earlier:
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</span>
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 12:02 PM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">yeah the cliche situation for this in app ui designs is "should the focus jump to the next element after you click on the target? or should it stay where it is? ==> dunno, make it a config option"</span>
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-820386658364424192" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="820386658364424192">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/1963eacbf364164efce1c597dc66aeab-E6901.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="bvisness#0001" data-user-id="132715550571888640">bvisness</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 12:03 PM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Yeah, that sucks</span>
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</div>
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</div>
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-820387154240471081" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="820387154240471081">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<div class="chatlog__reference-symbol"></div>
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<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/b032bf22b6696de1f403e43c3bdd4613-55F4A.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__reference">
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<img class="chatlog__reference-avatar" src="files/1963eacbf364164efce1c597dc66aeab-E6901.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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<div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="bvisness#0001">bvisness</div>
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<div class="chatlog__reference-content">
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<span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '820386414871969812')">
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What knobs do we even have? </span>
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</div>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="KawaiiKiwi#8166" data-user-id="170376556173066241">Voran</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 12:05 PM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">This is a question I was wondering too, because it seems like most configurations could just be implemented as options.</span>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-group">
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-820387188066877540" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="820387188066877540">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/1963eacbf364164efce1c597dc66aeab-E6901.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="bvisness#0001" data-user-id="132715550571888640">bvisness</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 12:05 PM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">So my concern is that when you design software assuming that users will be able to configure it, you will actually fail to solve the problems that your software should actually solve.</span>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-820387301221728356" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="820387301221728356">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 12:06 PM">12:06</div>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I think that to a very large extent, the purpose of creating software is to make decisions about how things should be done, so that others can benefit from your thinking about the problem.</span>
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</div>
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</div>
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-820387475062521906" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="820387475062521906">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 12:06 PM">12:06</div>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">And if you write software assuming "users will be able to configure this", will you ever be able to make your software do anything meaningful?</span>
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</div>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-group">
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-820387515172651039" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="820387515172651039">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/8bbce81d74ba142434988d9baee7f26e-1DC70.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title=".bmp#5134" data-user-id="327294362134511619">.bmp</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 12:07 PM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Right configuration is often <em>deferral</em></span>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-820387552623853628" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="820387552623853628">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 12:07 PM">12:07</div>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">On the part of the would-be designers</span>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-group" style="">
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-820387611738767390" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="820387611738767390">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/8bbce81d74ba142434988d9baee7f26e-1DC70.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title=".bmp#5134" data-user-id="327294362134511619">.bmp</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 12:07 PM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I mean, really, it's <em>always</em> deferral</span>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div><div class="chatlog__message-group" style="">
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-820387647821185064" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="820387647821185064">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/8bbce81d74ba142434988d9baee7f26e-1DC70.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title=".bmp#5134" data-user-id="327294362134511619">.bmp</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 12:07 PM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">The question is, when is deferral a good idea</span>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div><div class="chatlog__message-group" style="">
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-820387757948010598" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="820387757948010598">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/8bbce81d74ba142434988d9baee7f26e-1DC70.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title=".bmp#5134" data-user-id="327294362134511619">.bmp</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 12:08 PM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">If you're making the user essentially design their own software out of configurable building blocks you've fucked up</span>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div><div class="chatlog__message-group">
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-820387569958649886" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="820387569958649886">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<div class="chatlog__reference-symbol"></div>
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<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/89747c254631bcfd05c5c3e7141389aa-A1FB9.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__reference">
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<img class="chatlog__reference-avatar" src="files/1963eacbf364164efce1c597dc66aeab-E6901.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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<div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="bvisness#0001">bvisness</div>
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<div class="chatlog__reference-content">
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<span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '820387188066877540')">
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So my concern is that when you design software assuming that users will be able to configure it, you will actually fail to solve the problems that your software should actually solve. </span>
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</div>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 12:07 PM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">yes and this compounds nonlinearly, maybe exponentially</span>
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</div>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-group">
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-820387642159661117" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="820387642159661117">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/89747c254631bcfd05c5c3e7141389aa-A1FB9.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 12:07 PM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">it's one thing to say "user, please choose these 3 things, each from a small set of options"</span>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-group">
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-820387701269725185" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="820387701269725185">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/89747c254631bcfd05c5c3e7141389aa-A1FB9.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 12:07 PM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">it's another to have 50 options of unclear interaction</span>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-group">
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-820387987354812456" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="820387987354812456">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/1963eacbf364164efce1c597dc66aeab-E6901.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="bvisness#0001" data-user-id="132715550571888640">bvisness</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 12:08 PM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">But, sometimes it's useful to give some users that power, especially if they can distribute that extra software to others, right? So how do you navigate those decisions?</span>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-820388126211047434" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="820388126211047434">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 12:09 PM">12:09</div>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I don't think it's impossible to design good "building block" software, but my concern is about assuming building blocks too early.</span>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-group">
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-820388169634807849" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="820388169634807849">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/8bbce81d74ba142434988d9baee7f26e-1DC70.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title=".bmp#5134" data-user-id="327294362134511619">.bmp</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 12:09 PM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">In the overall space of software design it's very rare that you want to defer that power</span>
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-820388205953548289" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="820388205953548289">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 12:09 PM">12:09</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">(In the interest of creating good software at least)</span>
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-820388394583588884" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="820388394583588884">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 12:10 PM">12:10</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I mean another aspect we haven't discussed much is default configurations</span>
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 12:10 PM">12:10</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">So in the event that you do have moderately configurable software and it's not a disaster</span>
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 12:11 PM">12:11</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">You should still be shipping the best default configuration you possibly can</span>
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-820388593851826176" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="820388593851826176">
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 12:11 PM">12:11</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Such that the greatest number of users configure the fewest number of options</span>
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<div class="chatlog__reactions">
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<div class="chatlog__reaction" title="thumbsup">
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<img class="chatlog__emoji chatlog__emoji--small" alt="👍" src="files/1f44d-B3F5F.svg" loading="lazy">
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<span class="chatlog__reaction-count">3</span>
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-820388676492066816" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="820388676492066816">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 12:11 PM">12:11</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">(The default is good enough that most users use most of the default settings forever)</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="bvisness#0001" data-user-id="132715550571888640">bvisness</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 12:11 PM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Well and importantly, your default config needs to convey some idea of how the software is intended to be used.</span>
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-820388807153025054" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="820388807153025054">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 12:12 PM">12:12</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Which to me implies that you actually <em>designed</em> a system in a way that is useful, and maybe later found what could be an option.</span>
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/8bbce81d74ba142434988d9baee7f26e-1DC70.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title=".bmp#5134" data-user-id="327294362134511619">.bmp</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 12:12 PM</span>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">This is kind of where the nerdsniping aspect comes in because a lot of programmers have a bad model of their audience, I wouldn't be that surprised to hear some arguments back about how configuration is actually enjoyable
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And that's something only a programmer would think</span>
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<span class="chatlog__edited-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 12:13 PM">(edited)</span>
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-820389006788263946" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="820389006788263946">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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</div>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="KawaiiKiwi#8166" data-user-id="170376556173066241">Voran</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 12:13 PM</span>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I think that generally, you want to figure out what your users want to do, that they can't at the moment, but which you can't explicitly support for all users. E.G. I want to start up a bunch of programs when opening up, and enough other people want to start up programs too. The thing you can't decide is which programs to start up(that has to be a configuration if you want to provide this feature), but you CAN provide an interface to start things up.</span>
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<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/89747c254631bcfd05c5c3e7141389aa-A1FB9.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__reference">
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<img class="chatlog__reference-avatar" src="files/8bbce81d74ba142434988d9baee7f26e-1DC70.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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<div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title=".bmp#5134">.bmp</div>
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<div class="chatlog__reference-content">
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<span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '820388593851826176')">
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Such that the greatest number of users configure the fewest number of options </span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 12:13 PM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">a related, but I think slightly different, situation is what <a class="inserted-after" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruby_on_Rails" target="_blank">Rails</a> calls "<a class="inserted-after" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convention_over_configuration" target="_blank">convention over configuration</a>", i.e. there isn't even a "default" they just eliminate the choice entirely by saying "your html must be stored in a folder called html"</span>
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-820389082920255528" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="820389082920255528">
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 12:13 PM">12:13</div>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">(I don't know if that specific choice is in rails, but it's the kind of choice they're talking about)</span>
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<div class="chatlog__message-group" style="">
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-820389321998598165" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="820389321998598165">
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 12:14 PM</span>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">from the rails' designer perspective, nothing is gained and something is lost by allowing you to put your html in a folder called my_awesome_stuff</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="bvisness#0001" data-user-id="132715550571888640">bvisness</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 12:13 PM</span>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">oh man, that is a whole angle that could maybe be a fishbowl on its own</span>
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-820389292274614282" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="820389292274614282">
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 12:14 PM">12:14</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">but definitely related here</span>
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/8bbce81d74ba142434988d9baee7f26e-1DC70.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title=".bmp#5134" data-user-id="327294362134511619">.bmp</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 12:14 PM</span>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Well that's just removing configurability</span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 12:14 PM</span>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">wanting to do that is pathological</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title=".bmp#5134" data-user-id="327294362134511619">.bmp</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 12:14 PM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I'm talking about the case where you do have configurability as a base assumption</span>
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 12:14 PM">12:14</div>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Obviously overall the less configurability that you have or need is better</span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 12:15 PM</span>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">well my point is that most frameworks do have that configurability, and rails actively removed it</span>
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 12:15 PM">12:15</div>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">it was an act to remove it, it wasn't default</span>
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 12:15 PM">12:15</div>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">(again I emphasize I don't know if that specific thing is in rails, I'm just giving a hypothetical)</span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="bvisness#0001" data-user-id="132715550571888640">bvisness</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 12:15 PM</span>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">actually, as a result of this conversation, I'm now thinking my issues with Rails are for issues that aren't really related to "convention over configuration"</span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="bvisness#0001" data-user-id="132715550571888640">bvisness</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 12:16 PM</span>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">and more just to a design I don't like</span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title=".bmp#5134" data-user-id="327294362134511619">.bmp</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 12:16 PM</span>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I think as a software designer any time you are tempted to add configurability you should give it a trial by fire</span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title=".bmp#5134" data-user-id="327294362134511619">.bmp</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 12:16 PM</span>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">The burden of proof is on the necessity for configurability</span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 12:16 PM</span>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">DHH has a relevant essay on this, "Rails is Omakase" <a href="https://dhh.dk/2012/rails-is-omakase.html" target="_blank">https://dhh.dk/2012/rails-is-omakase.html</a></span>
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 12:17 PM">12:17</div>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">my paraphrase/summary: "You've come to me to give you a framework to make web applications. I'm telling you, there is no good reason not to put these files in a folder called html. So I'm just not even giving you the option."</span>
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<span class="chatlog__edited-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 12:17 PM">(edited)</span>
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<div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title=".bmp#5134">.bmp</div>
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<span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '820389830122274826')">
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The burden of proof is on the necessity for configurability </span>
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="KawaiiKiwi#8166" data-user-id="170376556173066241">Voran</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 12:17 PM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">This is why I think that you should be seeing what existing users are trying to do that they can't, rather than designing things up front to try and support what they might want to do</span>
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<span class="chatlog__reaction-count">1</span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title=".bmp#5134" data-user-id="327294362134511619">.bmp</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 12:17 PM</span>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Well and better yet just provide the ability to do that thing out of the box</span>
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 12:17 PM">12:17</div>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Not as an option</span>
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<div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title=".bmp#5134">.bmp</div>
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<span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '820390213908955166')">
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Well and better yet just provide the ability to do that thing out of the box </span>
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="KawaiiKiwi#8166" data-user-id="170376556173066241">Voran</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 12:23 PM</span>
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</div>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">In the context of something that might require configuration, it might not be the best idea to always provide it out of the box, actually. Something like the theoretical startup interface for choosing which programs to start requires configuration (each user wants to start different programs, probably), and it could work out of the box, but if I'm the only user who ever uses it then it was probably a waste of time for them to design it.</span>
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 12:23 PM">12:23</div>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Ideally you'd want to have some kind of assurance during development that testers tend to actually want to do that thing</span>
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<div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588">demetrispanos</div>
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<div class="chatlog__reference-content">
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<span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '820390031679815710')">
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my paraphrase/summary: "You've come to me to give you a framework to make web applications. I'm telling you, there is no good reason not to put these files in a folder called html. So I'm just not even giving you the option." </span>
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<span class="chatlog__reference-edited-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 12:17 PM">(edited)</span>
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title=".bmp#5134" data-user-id="327294362134511619">.bmp</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 12:19 PM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">There is a tyranny of choice aspect related to the nerdsniping</span>
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 12:19 PM">12:19</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Where the more options there are, the more some people will agonize over what the "right" options to use might be</span>
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 12:19 PM">12:19</div>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Or worse configuration might even be "expected"</span>
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</div>
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</div>
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-820390756187373628" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="820390756187373628">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 12:19 PM">12:19</div>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Where nobody uses the out-of-the-box settings</span>
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</div>
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</div>
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-820390841683148851" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="820390841683148851">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 12:20 PM">12:20</div>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">(And of course in the unfortunately common degenerate case the software doesn't even work without configuration)</span>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-820391006377476116" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="820391006377476116">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 12:20 PM">12:20</div>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">A quick example would be Windows installers</span>
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</div>
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</div>
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-820391036101722162" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="820391036101722162">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 12:21 PM">12:21</div>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">You <em>must</em> provide an installation path</span>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-820391164007809094" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="820391164007809094">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 12:21 PM">12:21</div>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Because there are actual tradeoffs to where you store the program, owing to Windows not having a model for what installation looks like</span>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-820391306089332736" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="820391306089332736">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 12:22 PM">12:22</div>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Whereas you could remove 100% of installer-config for almost all programs</span>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-820391395352903711" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="820391395352903711">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 12:22 PM">12:22</div>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Toward an app-store like installation process - click install, progress bar, done</span>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-group" style="">
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-820391649770209310" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="820391649770209310">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/8bbce81d74ba142434988d9baee7f26e-1DC70.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title=".bmp#5134" data-user-id="327294362134511619">.bmp</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 12:23 PM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">And, it's worth noting, for a lot of people I know with average/below average technical literacy installers are a huge point of confusion and frustration</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__reactions">
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<div class="chatlog__reaction" title="thumbsup">
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<img class="chatlog__emoji chatlog__emoji--small" alt="👍" src="files/1f44d-B3F5F.svg" loading="lazy">
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<span class="chatlog__reaction-count">1</span>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-group">
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-820391855354937364" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="820391855354937364">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/89747c254631bcfd05c5c3e7141389aa-A1FB9.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 12:24 PM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">a subject for another day, but installation is generally a terrible concept and should be avoided as much as possible</span>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-group" style="">
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-820391893225308220" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="820391893225308220">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/89747c254631bcfd05c5c3e7141389aa-A1FB9.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 12:24 PM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
|
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">it overlaps with configuration a bit</span>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div><div class="chatlog__message-group">
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-820391874455797770" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="820391874455797770">
|
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
|
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<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/8bbce81d74ba142434988d9baee7f26e-1DC70.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
|
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</div>
|
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
|
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<div class="chatlog__header">
|
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title=".bmp#5134" data-user-id="327294362134511619">.bmp</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 12:24 PM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
|
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Ironically it's the power user who understands that you should usually just click next a bunch of times and only pause to disable diagnostics, tracking, mailing lists, etc</span>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-group">
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-820392001584627722" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="820392001584627722">
|
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/8bbce81d74ba142434988d9baee7f26e-1DC70.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
|
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</div>
|
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
|
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<div class="chatlog__header">
|
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title=".bmp#5134" data-user-id="327294362134511619">.bmp</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 12:24 PM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">For the average user they feel like they might be screwing up something important</span>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-820392047340945408" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="820392047340945408">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 12:25 PM">12:25</div>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Why would they be presented with the option if it didn't matter?</span>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-group">
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-820392461218086922" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="820392461218086922">
|
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<div class="chatlog__message">
|
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
|
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<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/b032bf22b6696de1f403e43c3bdd4613-55F4A.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
|
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</div>
|
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
|
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<div class="chatlog__header">
|
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="KawaiiKiwi#8166" data-user-id="170376556173066241">Voran</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 12:26 PM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
|
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Installation location does matter a whole lot more when you have more than one disk drive, and have to manage space. I personally have to choose a new install location for most new programs, because the default is on my SSD, which doesn't have a lot more storage space (and I'd like that storage space to be reserved for a few things that I want to run fast)</span>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-820392691069222984" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="820392691069222984">
|
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<div class="chatlog__message">
|
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
|
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 12:27 PM">12:27</div>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">However nobody presents that in a clean way like it could be. The end user could just see a list of drives/partitions/whatever and how much space they have, then choose one and be done, if the operating system was designed that way</span>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-group" style="">
|
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-820393423541633035" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="820393423541633035">
|
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<div class="chatlog__message">
|
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
|
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<div class="chatlog__reference-symbol"></div>
|
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<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/a8391685ad8f7a9ee9d790b967364cb7-2AE0A.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
|
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
|
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<div class="chatlog__reference">
|
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<img class="chatlog__reference-avatar" src="files/b032bf22b6696de1f403e43c3bdd4613-55F4A.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
|
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<div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="KawaiiKiwi#8166">Voran</div>
|
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<div class="chatlog__reference-content">
|
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<span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '820392461218086922')">
|
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Installation location does matter a whole lot more when you have more than one disk drive, and have to manage space. I personally have to choose a new install location for most new programs, because the default is on my SSD, which doesn't have a lot more storage space (and I'd like that storage space to be reserved for a few things that I want to run fast) </span>
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</div>
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</div>
|
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<div class="chatlog__header">
|
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="Skytrias#8787" data-user-id="104835409523048448">Skytrias (Michael)</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 12:30 PM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">this wouldnt matter if most program installations are tiny like remedybg, single exe</span>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div><div class="chatlog__message-group" style="">
|
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-820393606035537980" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="820393606035537980">
|
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
|
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<div class="chatlog__reference-symbol"></div>
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<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/b032bf22b6696de1f403e43c3bdd4613-55F4A.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
|
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<div class="chatlog__reference">
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<img class="chatlog__reference-avatar" src="files/a8391685ad8f7a9ee9d790b967364cb7-2AE0A.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
|
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<div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="Skytrias#8787">Skytrias (Michael)</div>
|
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<div class="chatlog__reference-content">
|
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<span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '820393423541633035')">
|
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this wouldnt matter if most program installations are tiny like remedybg, single exe </span>
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</div>
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</div>
|
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<div class="chatlog__header">
|
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="KawaiiKiwi#8166" data-user-id="170376556173066241">Voran</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 12:31 PM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
|
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I don't expect most of my games to be that tiny, to be honest. Games are big, especially ones with lots of art assets.</span>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div><div class="chatlog__message-group">
|
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-820392986500005909" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="820392986500005909">
|
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<div class="chatlog__message">
|
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
|
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<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/8bbce81d74ba142434988d9baee7f26e-1DC70.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
|
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
|
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<div class="chatlog__header">
|
|
<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title=".bmp#5134" data-user-id="327294362134511619">.bmp</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 12:28 PM</span>
|
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
|
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Better yet default install would go to a globally configured drive</span>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-820393049178767390" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="820393049178767390">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 12:29 PM">12:29</div>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">If you want different you'd right-click and select a different install drive</span>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-820393179902771210" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="820393179902771210">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 12:29 PM">12:29</div>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Double click would still install without config</span>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-group">
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-820393254759563314" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="820393254759563314">
|
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<div class="chatlog__message">
|
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
|
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<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/89747c254631bcfd05c5c3e7141389aa-A1FB9.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 12:29 PM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">better yet you don't install it :P</span>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-820393268046331914" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="820393268046331914">
|
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<div class="chatlog__message">
|
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
|
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 12:29 PM">12:29</div>
|
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
|
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">it's just a file you have</span>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-820393293946290176" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="820393293946290176">
|
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<div class="chatlog__message">
|
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
|
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 12:30 PM">12:30</div>
|
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">(this is the macos .app model)</span>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-group">
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-820393341015425105" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="820393341015425105">
|
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<div class="chatlog__message">
|
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
|
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<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/8bbce81d74ba142434988d9baee7f26e-1DC70.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
|
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</div>
|
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
|
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<div class="chatlog__header">
|
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title=".bmp#5134" data-user-id="327294362134511619">.bmp</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 12:30 PM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I mean, not really, though</span>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-820393351505117236" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="820393351505117236">
|
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<div class="chatlog__message">
|
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
|
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 12:30 PM">12:30</div>
|
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">App store</span>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-group">
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-820393434270531634" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="820393434270531634">
|
|
<div class="chatlog__message">
|
|
<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
|
|
<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/8bbce81d74ba142434988d9baee7f26e-1DC70.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
|
|
</div>
|
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|
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
|
|
<div class="chatlog__header">
|
|
<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title=".bmp#5134" data-user-id="327294362134511619">.bmp</span>
|
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|
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 12:30 PM</span>
|
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</div>
|
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
|
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I mean, for some value of "install" but there is an expected application directory, etc</span>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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|
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<div class="chatlog__message-group" style="">
|
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-820393540436754442" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="820393540436754442">
|
|
<div class="chatlog__message">
|
|
<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
|
|
<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/8bbce81d74ba142434988d9baee7f26e-1DC70.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
|
|
</div>
|
|
|
|
<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
|
|
<div class="chatlog__header">
|
|
<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title=".bmp#5134" data-user-id="327294362134511619">.bmp</span>
|
|
|
|
|
|
<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 12:31 PM</span>
|
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</div>
|
|
|
|
<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
|
|
<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">If you just mean the lack of registry configuration then yes burn it with fire</span>
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</div>
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</div>
|
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</div>
|
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</div>
|
|
</div><div class="chatlog__message-group">
|
|
<div id="chatlog__message-container-820393495705419836" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="820393495705419836">
|
|
<div class="chatlog__message">
|
|
<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
|
|
<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/89747c254631bcfd05c5c3e7141389aa-A1FB9.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
|
|
</div>
|
|
|
|
<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
|
|
<div class="chatlog__header">
|
|
<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>
|
|
|
|
|
|
<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 12:30 PM</span>
|
|
</div>
|
|
|
|
<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
|
|
<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">let me clarify that .app is not related to the app store</span>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-group">
|
|
<div id="chatlog__message-container-820393546187669515" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="820393546187669515">
|
|
<div class="chatlog__message">
|
|
<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
|
|
<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/89747c254631bcfd05c5c3e7141389aa-A1FB9.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
|
|
</div>
|
|
|
|
<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
|
|
<div class="chatlog__header">
|
|
<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>
|
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|
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|
|
<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 12:31 PM</span>
|
|
</div>
|
|
|
|
<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
|
|
<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">.app is a bundle format for all of the files that are required to run an application</span>
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</div>
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</div>
|
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</div>
|
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</div>
|
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-group">
|
|
<div id="chatlog__message-container-820393600348848138" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="820393600348848138">
|
|
<div class="chatlog__message">
|
|
<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
|
|
<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/89747c254631bcfd05c5c3e7141389aa-A1FB9.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
|
|
</div>
|
|
|
|
<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
|
|
<div class="chatlog__header">
|
|
<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>
|
|
|
|
|
|
<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 12:31 PM</span>
|
|
</div>
|
|
|
|
<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
|
|
<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">to the user it appears as a single file, just like an image or a word doc etc.</span>
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</div>
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</div>
|
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</div>
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</div>
|
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</div>
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|
<div class="chatlog__message-group">
|
|
<div id="chatlog__message-container-820393627686535188" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="820393627686535188">
|
|
<div class="chatlog__message">
|
|
<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
|
|
<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/89747c254631bcfd05c5c3e7141389aa-A1FB9.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
|
|
</div>
|
|
|
|
<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
|
|
<div class="chatlog__header">
|
|
<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>
|
|
|
|
|
|
<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 12:31 PM</span>
|
|
</div>
|
|
|
|
<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
|
|
<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">you can drag it anywhere in your filesystem etc.</span>
|
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</div>
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</div>
|
|
</div>
|
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</div>
|
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</div>
|
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|
|
|
|
|
|
<div class="chatlog__message-group">
|
|
<div id="chatlog__message-container-820393658644693013" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="820393658644693013">
|
|
<div class="chatlog__message">
|
|
<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
|
|
<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/8bbce81d74ba142434988d9baee7f26e-1DC70.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
|
|
</div>
|
|
|
|
<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
|
|
<div class="chatlog__header">
|
|
<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title=".bmp#5134" data-user-id="327294362134511619">.bmp</span>
|
|
|
|
|
|
<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 12:31 PM</span>
|
|
</div>
|
|
|
|
<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
|
|
<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Right</span>
|
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|
|
</div>
|
|
|
|
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|
|
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|
|
</div>
|
|
</div>
|
|
</div>
|
|
<div id="chatlog__message-container-820393674771791893" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="820393674771791893">
|
|
<div class="chatlog__message">
|
|
<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
|
|
<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 12:31 PM">12:31</div>
|
|
</div>
|
|
|
|
<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
|
|
|
|
<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
|
|
<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">This is all good</span>
|
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|
</div>
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</div>
|
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</div>
|
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</div>
|
|
</div>
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
<div class="chatlog__message-group">
|
|
<div id="chatlog__message-container-820393715276972052" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="820393715276972052">
|
|
<div class="chatlog__message">
|
|
<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
|
|
<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/89747c254631bcfd05c5c3e7141389aa-A1FB9.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
|
|
</div>
|
|
|
|
<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
|
|
<div class="chatlog__header">
|
|
<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>
|
|
|
|
|
|
<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 12:31 PM</span>
|
|
</div>
|
|
|
|
<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
|
|
<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">it overlaps with the configuration discussion because it eliminates the concept of installation choices</span>
|
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|
|
</div>
|
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|
</div>
|
|
</div>
|
|
</div>
|
|
<div id="chatlog__message-container-820393728317456474" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="820393728317456474">
|
|
<div class="chatlog__message">
|
|
<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
|
|
<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 12:31 PM">12:31</div>
|
|
</div>
|
|
|
|
<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
|
|
|
|
<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
|
|
<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">you just <em>have</em> it</span>
|
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</div>
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</div>
|
|
</div>
|
|
</div>
|
|
<div id="chatlog__message-container-820393741478658098" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="820393741478658098">
|
|
<div class="chatlog__message">
|
|
<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
|
|
<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 12:31 PM">12:31</div>
|
|
</div>
|
|
|
|
<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
|
|
|
|
<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
|
|
<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">same as any other artifact</span>
|
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|
|
</div>
|
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|
</div>
|
|
</div>
|
|
</div>
|
|
</div>
|
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|
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|
|
|
|
<div class="chatlog__message-group">
|
|
<div id="chatlog__message-container-820393772482953246" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="820393772482953246">
|
|
<div class="chatlog__message">
|
|
<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
|
|
<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/8bbce81d74ba142434988d9baee7f26e-1DC70.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
|
|
</div>
|
|
|
|
<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
|
|
<div class="chatlog__header">
|
|
<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title=".bmp#5134" data-user-id="327294362134511619">.bmp</span>
|
|
|
|
|
|
<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 12:31 PM</span>
|
|
</div>
|
|
|
|
<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
|
|
<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Right and you can put it somewhere else if you want</span>
|
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|
|
</div>
|
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|
</div>
|
|
</div>
|
|
</div>
|
|
<div id="chatlog__message-container-820393785082249257" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="820393785082249257">
|
|
<div class="chatlog__message">
|
|
<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
|
|
<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 12:32 PM">12:32</div>
|
|
</div>
|
|
|
|
<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
|
|
|
|
<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
|
|
<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Or not</span>
|
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|
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</div>
|
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</div>
|
|
</div>
|
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</div>
|
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</div>
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|
|
<div class="chatlog__message-group">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="Skytrias#8787" data-user-id="104835409523048448">Skytrias (Michael)</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 12:32 PM</span>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">think of visual studio installation</span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title=".bmp#5134" data-user-id="327294362134511619">.bmp</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 12:32 PM</span>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I'd prefer not to</span>
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="Skytrias#8787" data-user-id="104835409523048448">Skytrias (Michael)</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 12:32 PM</span>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">wasnt there a finder for cl</span>
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-820393949130784778" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="820393949130784778">
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 12:32 PM">12:32</div>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">cuz they messed up locations so badly</span>
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 12:32 PM">12:32</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">across different versions</span>
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/8bbce81d74ba142434988d9baee7f26e-1DC70.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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</div>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title=".bmp#5134" data-user-id="327294362134511619">.bmp</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 12:32 PM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Jon Blow wrote like a 1000loc C++ program for finding the installation directories</span>
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<span class="chatlog__edited-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 12:33 PM">(edited)</span>
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-820394026477027328" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="820394026477027328">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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</div>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="KawaiiKiwi#8166" data-user-id="170376556173066241">Voran</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 12:32 PM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I think I agree with demitri, if you just download a file and it's just a file you can execute and run, that is way better for the user than an installation.</span>
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/a8391685ad8f7a9ee9d790b967364cb7-2AE0A.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="Skytrias#8787" data-user-id="104835409523048448">Skytrias (Michael)</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 12:33 PM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">oh god</span>
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-820394141308420166" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="820394141308420166">
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</div>
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<img class="chatlog__reference-avatar" src="files/b032bf22b6696de1f403e43c3bdd4613-55F4A.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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<div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="KawaiiKiwi#8166">Voran</div>
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<div class="chatlog__reference-content">
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<span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '820394026477027328')">
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I think I agree with demitri, if you just download a file and it's just a file you can execute and run, that is way better for the user than an installation. </span>
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</div>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="bvisness#0001" data-user-id="132715550571888640">bvisness</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 12:33 PM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">further examples of eliminating configuration through smarter design, yeah</span>
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/8bbce81d74ba142434988d9baee7f26e-1DC70.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title=".bmp#5134" data-user-id="327294362134511619">.bmp</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 12:33 PM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve"><span class="chatlog__markdown-mention" title="Skytrias#8787">@Skytrias (Michael)</span> <a href="https://gist.github.com/andrewrk/ffb272748448174e6cdb4958dae9f3d8" target="_blank">https://gist.github.com/andrewrk/ffb272748448174e6cdb4958dae9f3d8</a></span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__embed">
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<div class="chatlog__embed-color-pill" style="background-color: rgba(30, 35, 39, 255)"></div>
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<div class="chatlog__embed-title">
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<a class="chatlog__embed-title-link" href="https://gist.github.com/andrewrk/ffb272748448174e6cdb4958dae9f3d8">
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<div class="chatlog__markdown chatlog__markdown-preserve">jonathan blow's c++ code for finding msvc</div>
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</a>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__embed-description">
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<div class="chatlog__markdown chatlog__markdown-preserve">jonathan blow's c++ code for finding msvc. GitHub Gist: instantly share code, notes, and snippets.</div>
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<div class="chatlog__embed-thumbnail-container">
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<a class="chatlog__embed-thumbnail-link" href="files/gist-og-image-17482.png">
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<img class="chatlog__embed-thumbnail" src="files/gist-og-image-17482.png" alt="Thumbnail" loading="lazy">
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</a>
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-820394183008321576" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="820394183008321576">
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 12:33 PM">12:33</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">My bad it's like 500</span>
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-820394187685232722" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="820394187685232722">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 12:33 PM">12:33</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Still</span>
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-820394539663491132" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="820394539663491132">
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__reference">
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<img class="chatlog__reference-avatar" src="files/b032bf22b6696de1f403e43c3bdd4613-55F4A.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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<div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="KawaiiKiwi#8166">Voran</div>
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<div class="chatlog__reference-content">
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<span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '820394026477027328')">
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I think I agree with demitri, if you just download a file and it's just a file you can execute and run, that is way better for the user than an installation. </span>
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</div>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title=".bmp#5134" data-user-id="327294362134511619">.bmp</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 12:35 PM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Well part of the thing here is that it is still actually a directory with multiple files but it's presented to the user as the least-complex possible thing</span>
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-820394620537929738" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="820394620537929738">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 12:35 PM">12:35</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Because almost no user cares about anything that's inside the folder</span>
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<div class="chatlog__reference-symbol"></div>
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<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/b032bf22b6696de1f403e43c3bdd4613-55F4A.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__reference">
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<img class="chatlog__reference-avatar" src="files/8bbce81d74ba142434988d9baee7f26e-1DC70.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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<div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title=".bmp#5134">.bmp</div>
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<div class="chatlog__reference-content">
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<span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '820394620537929738')">
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Because almost no user cares about anything that's inside the folder </span>
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</div>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="KawaiiKiwi#8166" data-user-id="170376556173066241">Voran</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 12:36 PM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Right, you can go into it and access, say, saved games, which is very useful. But the fact that it's bundled together with the executable means everything just works wherever you put it, and you don't need any up front configuration</span>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__reference">
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<img class="chatlog__reference-avatar" src="files/8bbce81d74ba142434988d9baee7f26e-1DC70.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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<div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title=".bmp#5134">.bmp</div>
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<span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '820394620537929738')">
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Because almost no user cares about anything that's inside the folder </span>
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 12:36 PM</span>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">indeed the default desktop operations don't even let you treat it like a folder</span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="bvisness#0001" data-user-id="132715550571888640">bvisness</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 12:34 PM</span>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">so the topic we seem to keep coming around to is that design is really critical: it helps you avoid configuration entirely, ensure that what configuration you have is useful, and ensure that your default configuration is a good user experience</span>
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<span class="chatlog__edited-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 12:34 PM">(edited)</span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="bvisness#0001" data-user-id="132715550571888640">bvisness</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 12:35 PM</span>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">so one concrete piece of advice I'd like to propose, then, is to design your software without configuration first, and to then introduce configuration (or options) at a later date</span>
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<span class="chatlog__edited-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 12:36 PM">(edited)</span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title=".bmp#5134" data-user-id="327294362134511619">.bmp</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 12:36 PM</span>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Yes</span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="bvisness#0001" data-user-id="132715550571888640">bvisness</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 12:36 PM</span>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">sound reasonable? caveats?</span>
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/8bbce81d74ba142434988d9baee7f26e-1DC70.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title=".bmp#5134" data-user-id="327294362134511619">.bmp</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 12:36 PM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Any technical cost to adding configuration later pales in comparison to the costs of adding design later</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__reference">
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<img class="chatlog__reference-avatar" src="files/1963eacbf364164efce1c597dc66aeab-E6901.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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<div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="bvisness#0001">bvisness</div>
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<div class="chatlog__reference-content">
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<span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '820394743824908305')">
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so one concrete piece of advice I'd like to propose, then, is to design your software without configuration first, and to then introduce configuration (or options) at a later date </span>
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<span class="chatlog__reference-edited-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 12:36 PM">(edited)</span>
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</div>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="Skytrias#8787" data-user-id="104835409523048448">Skytrias (Michael)</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 12:36 PM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">thats interesting, i already have optional features for my program, should i not have them and force them, only implement them once users rage / want them?</span>
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<span class="chatlog__edited-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 12:36 PM">(edited)</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="KawaiiKiwi#8166" data-user-id="170376556173066241">Voran</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 12:36 PM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Yeah. Introduce configuration as it's needed, rather than to give people more options up front</span>
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<span class="chatlog__edited-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 12:37 PM">(edited)</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-group" style="">
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-820395251700465664" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="820395251700465664">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="KawaiiKiwi#8166" data-user-id="170376556173066241">Voran</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 12:37 PM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Do keep in mind that there's a distinction between configurations and options (see demitri's post at the beginning)</span>
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-820395110415990784" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="820395110415990784">
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<div class="chatlog__reference">
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<img class="chatlog__reference-avatar" src="files/a8391685ad8f7a9ee9d790b967364cb7-2AE0A.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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<div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="Skytrias#8787">Skytrias (Michael)</div>
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<div class="chatlog__reference-content">
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<span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '820394965501870090')">
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thats interesting, i already have optional features for my program, should i not have them and force them, only implement them once users rage / want them? </span>
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<span class="chatlog__reference-edited-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 12:36 PM">(edited)</span>
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</div>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="bvisness#0001" data-user-id="132715550571888640">bvisness</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 12:37 PM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I think it's highly likely that those choices might be irrelevant to your users, and that by failing to make that decision yourself you have locked yourself out of interesting further designs</span>
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 12:37 PM">12:37</div>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">a lot of useful features will need to be based on assumptions about how other parts of the system work</span>
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<img class="chatlog__reference-avatar" src="files/1963eacbf364164efce1c597dc66aeab-E6901.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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<div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="bvisness#0001">bvisness</div>
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<div class="chatlog__reference-content">
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<span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '820394743824908305')">
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so one concrete piece of advice I'd like to propose, then, is to design your software without configuration first, and to then introduce configuration (or options) at a later date </span>
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<span class="chatlog__reference-edited-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 12:36 PM">(edited)</span>
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</div>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 12:37 PM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I think this is a good aspirational goal, I wonder if there are practical limitations. For example, if I make a web server I guess I can default to port 80, no TLS cert, etc., and then maybe the next level is I have server_config folder in which I look for a cert file etc.</span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 12:38 PM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">though web servers could plausibly accept all that stuff as command-line arguments</span>
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-820395447775920158" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="820395447775920158">
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 12:38 PM">12:38</div>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">as they are important operational inputs</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="bvisness#0001" data-user-id="132715550571888640">bvisness</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 12:38 PM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Web servers continue to be a confounding case for this terminology</span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="bvisness#0001" data-user-id="132715550571888640">bvisness</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 12:39 PM</span>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Input method aside, as you said earlier, they are important inputs <em>somehow</em>. But, there's a spectrum of essential to optional, and a lot of webserver stuff is more and more optional.</span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="bvisness#0001" data-user-id="132715550571888640">bvisness</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 12:39 PM</span>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Like you definitely need to bind to an address and a port, and you can choose whatever input method will best serve your users</span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="bvisness#0001" data-user-id="132715550571888640">bvisness</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 12:39 PM</span>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Ok, but choosing what address and port something will live on is a decision a user will have to make.</span>
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<span class="chatlog__edited-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 12:39 PM">(edited)</span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title=".bmp#5134" data-user-id="327294362134511619">.bmp</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 12:39 PM</span>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Well the web is built on ridiculous layers of complexity and with configuration-first as a baselines assumption</span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title=".bmp#5134" data-user-id="327294362134511619">.bmp</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 12:39 PM</span>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">It's basically the worst imaginable degenerate case of everything we're talking about here</span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title=".bmp#5134" data-user-id="327294362134511619">.bmp</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 12:40 PM</span>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">So it's not like you're operating from a clean slate</span>
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 12:40 PM">12:40</div>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">You have to interface with a bunch of configurability imposed on you by the environment</span>
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<div class="chatlog__reference">
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<img class="chatlog__reference-avatar" src="files/1963eacbf364164efce1c597dc66aeab-E6901.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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<div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="bvisness#0001">bvisness</div>
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<div class="chatlog__reference-content">
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<span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '820395679821463593')">
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Like you definitely need to bind to an address and a port, and you can choose whatever input method will best serve your users </span>
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</div>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 12:40 PM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">yeah, and that stuff can be pushed toward "options" part of the spectrum with just a little bit of design</span>
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<div class="chatlog__reference">
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<img class="chatlog__reference-avatar" src="files/89747c254631bcfd05c5c3e7141389aa-A1FB9.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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<div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588">demetrispanos</div>
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<div class="chatlog__reference-content">
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<span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '820395802534084639')">
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yeah, and that stuff can be pushed toward "options" part of the spectrum with just a little bit of design </span>
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="bvisness#0001" data-user-id="132715550571888640">bvisness</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 12:41 PM</span>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Right, there are any number of ways you could do this (config file, GUI, web dashboard served on a random private port, command-line flags, environment variables, etc. etc.)</span>
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-820396268936495105" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="820396268936495105">
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 12:41 PM">12:41</div>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Or any number of future options. But per your terminology it's hardly even "config".</span>
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-820396393649799241" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="820396393649799241">
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 12:42 PM">12:42</div>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I mean, with this terminology, I feel like "optional config" is redundant. If it's not optional, it's not config.</span>
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 12:42 PM">12:42</div>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Maybe it's still a crappy input channel but we can exclude it from this level of design discussion.</span>
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title=".bmp#5134" data-user-id="327294362134511619">.bmp</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 12:42 PM</span>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Very much disagree</span>
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 12:43 PM">12:43</div>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">One category of configuration that I particularly despise is first-launch configuration</span>
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<img class="chatlog__emoji chatlog__emoji--small" alt="☝️" src="files/261d-3A498.svg" loading="lazy">
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<span class="chatlog__reaction-count">1</span>
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title=".bmp#5134" data-user-id="327294362134511619">.bmp</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 12:43 PM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Where to even start using an application you're first forced to make a bunch of decisions related to the config</span>
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 12:44 PM">12:44</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Where, for one, you don't even know what the tradeoffs are yet because you haven't used it</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="Skytrias#8787" data-user-id="104835409523048448">Skytrias (Michael)</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 12:43 PM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">one thing i wanted to ask, should you force users to use configuration via ui, or should configuration via text always be possible?</span>
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<div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="Skytrias#8787">Skytrias (Michael)</div>
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one thing i wanted to ask, should you force users to use configuration via ui, or should configuration via text always be possible? </span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 12:44 PM</span>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">anywhere you want reproducibility/automation I think a text artifact is a desirable option</span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="Skytrias#8787" data-user-id="104835409523048448">Skytrias (Michael)</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 12:47 PM</span>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">that makes sense</span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="Skytrias#8787" data-user-id="104835409523048448">Skytrias (Michael)</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 12:48 PM</span>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">also for sharing options</span>
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<div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title=".bmp#5134">.bmp</div>
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Where, for one, you don't even know what the tradeoffs are yet because you haven't used it </span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="KawaiiKiwi#8166" data-user-id="170376556173066241">Voran</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 12:47 PM</span>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I agree, you should never be unable to run the program without configuration at all. Ideally, the few choices that you have to make (language, location on file system) should be inherited from/chosen by something like the operating system, which should have the only necessary things to configure already figured out.</span>
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<div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="KawaiiKiwi#8166">Voran</div>
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I agree, you should never be unable to run the program without configuration at all. Ideally, the few choices that you have to make (language, location on file system) should be inherited from/chosen by something like the operating system, which should have the only necessary things to configure already figured out. </span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="KawaiiKiwi#8166" data-user-id="170376556173066241">Voran</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 12:48 PM</span>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I'm not sure how feasible this is, but in most cases the configuration can be limited to a very limited set of things, that you already made the decision about on the overarching system</span>
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<span class="chatlog__edited-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 12:49 PM">(edited)</span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="bvisness#0001" data-user-id="132715550571888640">bvisness</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 12:49 PM</span>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">It's totally reasonable I think to be required to provide data on launch as long as there is context for it, and regardless of whether you consider it "config" I think it's less interesting for the purposes of this discussion</span>
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 12:50 PM">12:50</div>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">If a program needs user data to run, it needs to get it at some point, and maybe the best time to ask for it is on first launch, or maybe it isn't. But I think a lot of the type of configuration we're talking about here is optional data provided beyond the minimum required.</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 12:51 PM</span>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">yeah, so one principle is "is it possible to set a default that works most of the time, and is not harmful in the cases where it's wrong?"</span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="KawaiiKiwi#8166" data-user-id="170376556173066241">Voran</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 12:52 PM</span>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I'm curious about what kinds of user data would be needed to run, because it seems like to me, most things that you'd need (keyboard layout, language) can or should be able to be detected rather than asked for.</span>
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<div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="KawaiiKiwi#8166">Voran</div>
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I'm curious about what kinds of user data would be needed to run, because it seems like to me, most things that you'd need (keyboard layout, language) can or should be able to be detected rather than asked for. </span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="bvisness#0001" data-user-id="132715550571888640">bvisness</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 12:53 PM</span>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Depends on the app, e.g. a rideshare app may need location permissions, user profile data for drivers, and payment info</span>
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 12:53 PM">12:53</div>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">maybe some of that can be deferred, maybe not</span>
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<div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588">demetrispanos</div>
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yeah, so one principle is "is it possible to set a default that works most of the time, and is not harmful in the cases where it's wrong?" </span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="bvisness#0001" data-user-id="132715550571888640">bvisness</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 12:53 PM</span>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I like this question, and I think it can be fairly applied to practically any "config decision" a programmer might make.</span>
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 12:54 PM">12:54</div>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">And I would guess that by thinking through that decision, you will discover some important stuff about your software and the problem you're solving.</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 12:56 PM</span>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">similarly, "Hypothetically, if it were impossible to collect this information, what would I do?" (this gives a path to eliminating the input entirely)</span>
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<span class="chatlog__edited-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 12:57 PM">(edited)</span>
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<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/89747c254631bcfd05c5c3e7141389aa-A1FB9.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 12:58 PM</span>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">so for example "Hypothetically, my user refuses to tell me what folder will contain the html files. OK fine user, then I will insist that all html must come from the folder /html"</span>
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<span class="chatlog__edited-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 12:58 PM">(edited)</span>
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 12:58 PM">12:58</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">and then you discover that this was a better design than asking the user to begin with</span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="bvisness#0001" data-user-id="132715550571888640">bvisness</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 12:57 PM</span>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">To revisit some previous points, aesthetic editor decisions clearly can have a good default, keymappings could have useful defaults, even program installation locations could have reasonable defaults depending on the underlying system. But perhaps for something like a webserver, some form of address is both difficult (or impossible) to choose a value for, and harmful if it's wrong.</span>
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 12:57 PM">12:57</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">oh I really like that as well, keep 'em coming <img loading="lazy" class="chatlog__emoji " alt="😛" title="stuck_out_tongue" src="files\twemoji_1f61b.svg"></span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="bvisness#0001" data-user-id="132715550571888640">bvisness</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 12:58 PM</span>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">and you can then ask the initial question of "is it harmful in any way to choose this on behalf of the user?"</span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 12:58 PM</span>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">yeah</span>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="bvisness#0001" data-user-id="132715550571888640">bvisness</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 01:00 PM</span>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">To extend that example, you may then at some point find that for some users it is a legitimate pain point to have everything in the <span class="chatlog__markdown-pre chatlog__markdown-pre--inline">/html</span> folder, and at that point perhaps you could introduce an option. But it still isn't harmful to choose <span class="chatlog__markdown-pre chatlog__markdown-pre--inline">/html</span> on the user's behalf, initially.</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 01:00 PM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">going on your webserver example, maybe it's useful to specifically call out inputs where you expect the potential for adversarial action (e.g. web server addresses/ports)</span>
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-820401096865480724" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="820401096865480724">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 01:01 PM">13:01</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">so if you knew no one was trying to exploit you, you could just go ahead and take port 80 (or some similar network resource)</span>
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-820401211793735750" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="820401211793735750">
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 01:01 PM">13:01</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">but maybe you have to account for the fact that adversaries might be looking for default-configured software</span>
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</div>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="bvisness#0001" data-user-id="132715550571888640">bvisness</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 01:02 PM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">yeah, and actually, I think that because it's potentially harmful you have a good reason to ask the user, and a good opportunity then to help the user make an informed decision</span>
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 01:03 PM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">right so let me throw in an additional tool similar to defaults but not quite defaults, which is runtime/first-time interrogation</span>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="bvisness#0001" data-user-id="132715550571888640">bvisness</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 01:03 PM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">the thing <span class="chatlog__markdown-mention" title=".bmp#5134">@.bmp</span> hates <img loading="lazy" class="chatlog__emoji " alt="😛" title="stuck_out_tongue" src="files\twemoji_1f61b.svg"></span>
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<span class="chatlog__edited-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 01:03 PM">(edited)</span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title=".bmp#5134" data-user-id="327294362134511619">.bmp</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 01:03 PM</span>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve"><img loading="lazy" class="chatlog__emoji chatlog__emoji--large" alt="😩" title="weary" src="files\twemoji_1f629.svg"></span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 01:03 PM</span>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve"><div class="chatlog__markdown-pre chatlog__markdown-pre--multiline nohighlight">./run_server
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... can't find previous run-log, assuming first-run
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... will use port 80, ok? [y/n]
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y
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... will use localhost, ok? [y/n]
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y</div></span>
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<span class="chatlog__edited-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 01:04 PM">(edited)</span>
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 01:04 PM">13:04</div>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">no I mean something different from what brendan means</span>
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-820401882564526081" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="820401882564526081">
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 01:04 PM">13:04</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">something interpolating anyway</span>
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-820401980425371680" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="820401980425371680">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/8bbce81d74ba142434988d9baee7f26e-1DC70.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title=".bmp#5134" data-user-id="327294362134511619">.bmp</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 01:04 PM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Right, where it's just like "we're going to do xyz, is that cool?"</span>
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<div class="chatlog__message-group">
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-820401980743745646" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="820401980743745646">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/1963eacbf364164efce1c597dc66aeab-E6901.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="bvisness#0001" data-user-id="132715550571888640">bvisness</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 01:04 PM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">ah, I see</span>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-group">
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-820402036943749160" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="820402036943749160">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/89747c254631bcfd05c5c3e7141389aa-A1FB9.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 01:04 PM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">so you're 1) calling out the defaults, 2) asking for explicit permission</span>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-820402128086106132" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="820402128086106132">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 01:05 PM">13:05</div>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">and if the user says no you then give a helpful message <div class="chatlog__markdown-pre chatlog__markdown-pre--multiline nohighlight">... will use port 80, ok? [y/n]
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n
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... ok, please set SERVER_PORT in server.conf
|
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... aborting</div></span>
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<span class="chatlog__edited-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 01:05 PM">(edited)</span>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-group">
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-820402147416997910" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="820402147416997910">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/1963eacbf364164efce1c597dc66aeab-E6901.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="bvisness#0001" data-user-id="132715550571888640">bvisness</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 01:05 PM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">yeah, and this still allows a design intent to be communicated</span>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-group" style="">
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-820402212176920597" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="820402212176920597">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/1963eacbf364164efce1c597dc66aeab-E6901.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="bvisness#0001" data-user-id="132715550571888640">bvisness</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 01:05 PM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">this doesn't excuse you from design in any way</span>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div><div class="chatlog__message-group">
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-820402200374804512" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="820402200374804512">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/a8391685ad8f7a9ee9d790b967364cb7-2AE0A.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
|
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__header">
|
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="Skytrias#8787" data-user-id="104835409523048448">Skytrias (Michael)</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 01:05 PM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">something it would need afterwards would be <span class="chatlog__markdown-pre chatlog__markdown-pre--inline">you can configure this afterwards in file.xy</span></span>
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<span class="chatlog__edited-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 01:05 PM">(edited)</span>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-group">
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-820402229868757077" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="820402229868757077">
|
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<div class="chatlog__message">
|
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
|
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<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/8bbce81d74ba142434988d9baee7f26e-1DC70.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
|
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</div>
|
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
|
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<div class="chatlog__header">
|
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title=".bmp#5134" data-user-id="327294362134511619">.bmp</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 01:05 PM</span>
|
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
|
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I would still much prefer just not asking</span>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-820402260647215135" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="820402260647215135">
|
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<div class="chatlog__message">
|
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
|
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 01:05 PM">13:05</div>
|
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</div>
|
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
|
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">And if you want something else, you do something else</span>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-group">
|
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-820402286521221150" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="820402286521221150">
|
|
<div class="chatlog__message">
|
|
<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
|
|
<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/1963eacbf364164efce1c597dc66aeab-E6901.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
|
|
</div>
|
|
|
|
<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
|
|
<div class="chatlog__header">
|
|
<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="bvisness#0001" data-user-id="132715550571888640">bvisness</span>
|
|
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|
|
|
<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 01:05 PM</span>
|
|
</div>
|
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
|
|
<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">sure, but we're talking about the situations where you have to ask</span>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-group">
|
|
<div id="chatlog__message-container-820402301256335390" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="820402301256335390">
|
|
<div class="chatlog__message">
|
|
<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
|
|
<div class="chatlog__reference-symbol"></div>
|
|
<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/89747c254631bcfd05c5c3e7141389aa-A1FB9.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
|
|
</div>
|
|
|
|
<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
|
|
<div class="chatlog__reference">
|
|
<img class="chatlog__reference-avatar" src="files/8bbce81d74ba142434988d9baee7f26e-1DC70.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
|
|
<div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title=".bmp#5134">.bmp</div>
|
|
<div class="chatlog__reference-content">
|
|
<span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '820402260647215135')">
|
|
And if you want something else, you do something else </span>
|
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|
|
</div>
|
|
</div>
|
|
<div class="chatlog__header">
|
|
<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>
|
|
|
|
|
|
<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 01:05 PM</span>
|
|
</div>
|
|
|
|
<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
|
|
<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">this has to be traded against security risks</span>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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|
<div class="chatlog__message-group">
|
|
<div id="chatlog__message-container-820402327936434176" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="820402327936434176">
|
|
<div class="chatlog__message">
|
|
<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
|
|
<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/8bbce81d74ba142434988d9baee7f26e-1DC70.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
|
|
</div>
|
|
|
|
<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
|
|
<div class="chatlog__header">
|
|
<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title=".bmp#5134" data-user-id="327294362134511619">.bmp</span>
|
|
|
|
|
|
<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 01:05 PM</span>
|
|
</div>
|
|
|
|
<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
|
|
<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">If it can't be changed after first-time setup, just have two first-time setup paths</span>
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</div>
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</div>
|
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</div>
|
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</div>
|
|
<div id="chatlog__message-container-820402524062220329" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="820402524062220329">
|
|
<div class="chatlog__message">
|
|
<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
|
|
<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 01:06 PM">13:06</div>
|
|
</div>
|
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|
|
<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
|
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
|
|
<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve"><em>One</em> prompt, for example that says "Just use all default settings y/n"</span>
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</div>
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</div>
|
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</div>
|
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</div>
|
|
<div id="chatlog__message-container-820402584795873290" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="820402584795873290">
|
|
<div class="chatlog__message">
|
|
<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
|
|
<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 01:06 PM">13:06</div>
|
|
</div>
|
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|
|
<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
|
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|
|
<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
|
|
<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">And if you select no, it has further prompts</span>
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</div>
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</div>
|
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</div>
|
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</div>
|
|
<div id="chatlog__message-container-820402627506470913" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="820402627506470913">
|
|
<div class="chatlog__message">
|
|
<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
|
|
<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 01:07 PM">13:07</div>
|
|
</div>
|
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|
|
<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
|
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
|
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">If you select yes, you're done</span>
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</div>
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</div>
|
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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|
<div class="chatlog__message-group">
|
|
<div id="chatlog__message-container-820402933950054431" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="820402933950054431">
|
|
<div class="chatlog__message">
|
|
<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
|
|
<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/89747c254631bcfd05c5c3e7141389aa-A1FB9.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
|
|
</div>
|
|
|
|
<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
|
|
<div class="chatlog__header">
|
|
<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>
|
|
|
|
|
|
<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 01:08 PM</span>
|
|
</div>
|
|
|
|
<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
|
|
<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">that's possibly fine but the user might not know that "all default settings" includes things with security impacts</span>
|
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|
|
<span class="chatlog__edited-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 01:08 PM">(edited)</span>
|
|
</div>
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</div>
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</div>
|
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</div>
|
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</div>
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|
<div class="chatlog__message-group">
|
|
<div id="chatlog__message-container-820403259700412416" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="820403259700412416">
|
|
<div class="chatlog__message">
|
|
<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
|
|
<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/a8391685ad8f7a9ee9d790b967364cb7-2AE0A.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
|
|
</div>
|
|
|
|
<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
|
|
<div class="chatlog__header">
|
|
<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="Skytrias#8787" data-user-id="104835409523048448">Skytrias (Michael)</span>
|
|
|
|
|
|
<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 01:09 PM</span>
|
|
</div>
|
|
|
|
<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
|
|
<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">if i store an ip in a config file, i should probably try to encrypt / hide it?</span>
|
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|
<span class="chatlog__edited-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 01:10 PM">(edited)</span>
|
|
</div>
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</div>
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</div>
|
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</div>
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</div>
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|
<div class="chatlog__message-group">
|
|
<div id="chatlog__message-container-820403398997180477" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="820403398997180477">
|
|
<div class="chatlog__message">
|
|
<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
|
|
<div class="chatlog__reference-symbol"></div>
|
|
<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/8bbce81d74ba142434988d9baee7f26e-1DC70.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
|
|
</div>
|
|
|
|
<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
|
|
<div class="chatlog__reference">
|
|
<img class="chatlog__reference-avatar" src="files/89747c254631bcfd05c5c3e7141389aa-A1FB9.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
|
|
<div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588">demetrispanos</div>
|
|
<div class="chatlog__reference-content">
|
|
<span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '820402933950054431')">
|
|
that's possibly fine but the user might not know that "all default settings" includes things with security impacts </span>
|
|
|
|
<span class="chatlog__reference-edited-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 01:08 PM">(edited)</span>
|
|
</div>
|
|
</div>
|
|
<div class="chatlog__header">
|
|
<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title=".bmp#5134" data-user-id="327294362134511619">.bmp</span>
|
|
|
|
|
|
<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 01:10 PM</span>
|
|
</div>
|
|
|
|
<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
|
|
<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Then they shouldn't be setting up something with security implications</span>
|
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title=".bmp#5134">.bmp</div>
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Then they shouldn't be setting up something with security implications </span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 01:10 PM</span>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">ok but they might not know that :P</span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="KawaiiKiwi#8166" data-user-id="170376556173066241">Voran</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 01:10 PM</span>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Whether they should or shouldn't, people probably will. This is the web</span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 01:11 PM</span>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">certainly when I started out I didn't know that people were scanning ips for default-configured servers to exploit</span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title=".bmp#5134" data-user-id="327294362134511619">.bmp</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 01:11 PM</span>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I mean in your example someone who doesn't know there are security implications to setting up a web server isn't going to know which port to use for security reasons</span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="bvisness#0001" data-user-id="132715550571888640">bvisness</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 01:11 PM</span>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">But this is an opportunity to communicate this to them, instead of just saying "well, screw it, you don't know better"</span>
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<span class="chatlog__reaction-count">1</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 01:12 PM</span>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Right so just say "note: first-time settings have security implications, please only use default configuration if you are certain you are comfortable with that" or whatever</span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 01:13 PM</span>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">yeah, this raises a separate topic about configuration which is that it is often plagued by documentation/communication problems</span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title=".bmp#5134" data-user-id="327294362134511619">.bmp</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 01:13 PM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Anyway again we're talking about poweruser stuff</span>
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 01:13 PM">13:13</div>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Which is not the general design case</span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 01:13 PM</span>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I can't count the times I discovered some config option from reading someone else's code, that wasn't documented in the official docs</span>
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 01:14 PM">13:14</div>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">"oh there's a <span class="chatlog__markdown-pre chatlog__markdown-pre--inline">DONT_LAUNCH_NUKES</span> option, very cool I wish I had known that last week"</span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title=".bmp#5134" data-user-id="327294362134511619">.bmp</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 01:14 PM</span>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Talk about bad defaults</span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="bvisness#0001" data-user-id="132715550571888640">bvisness</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 01:14 PM</span>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Yes, and that's an issue that I think needs to be addressed no matter what you choose to make configuration or not</span>
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 01:15 PM">13:15</div>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">it's actually a good case too for something more toward "options"</span>
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<span class="chatlog__edited-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 01:15 PM">(edited)</span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title=".bmp#5134" data-user-id="327294362134511619">.bmp</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 01:15 PM</span>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Yeah it's a problem even in consumer-tier software where options are just not explained</span>
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 01:16 PM">13:16</div>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">You have a label on a radio box and the label is highly ambiguous or whatever</span>
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 01:16 PM">13:16</div>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">And you're like "what the fuck does this mean"</span>
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 01:16 PM">13:16</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">And there's no way to find out</span>
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 01:16 PM">13:16</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Again another problem with programmer-as-designer</span>
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 01:17 PM">13:17</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Or even potentially designer-as-designer</span>
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 01:17 PM">13:17</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">The person who is setting up the configuration interface has knowledge bias</span>
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 01:17 PM">13:17</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">They're already very familiar with the settings, the tradeoffs, etc</span>
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 01:18 PM">13:18</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">If they're not a good communicator, don't have a good model of their audience, don't have a good model of how their own knowledge interacts with the interface, they won't communicate the options properly</span>
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="bvisness#0001" data-user-id="132715550571888640">bvisness</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 01:18 PM</span>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Eventually I think it does all come back to thinking about your users and trying to reduce costs for them</span>
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 01:19 PM">13:19</div>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">and I think we've clearly established from this conversation that the benefits of configuration are overestimated and the costs hardly estimated at all</span>
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</div>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="bvisness#0001" data-user-id="132715550571888640">bvisness</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 01:19 PM</span>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">and by asking some critical questions about your design, you can design significantly better software for your users</span>
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<div class="chatlog__reference">
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<div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title=".bmp#5134">.bmp</div>
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<span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '820404924718252053')">
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And you're like "what the fuck does this mean" </span>
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="Skytrias#8787" data-user-id="104835409523048448">Skytrias (Michael)</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 01:19 PM</span>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">how would you avoid this though, i know some programs display videos what the change would do</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title=".bmp#5134" data-user-id="327294362134511619">.bmp</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 01:19 PM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Even just a one-sentence blurb would often do the trick</span>
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-820405749917810760" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="820405749917810760">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 01:19 PM">13:19</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Or a better-worded label</span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="Skytrias#8787" data-user-id="104835409523048448">Skytrias (Michael)</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 01:19 PM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">yea i have that already, still sometimes feels abstract</span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 01:19 PM</span>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">re: reducing costs — paraphrasing something jon blow has said several times, if you have 1000 users and you waste 5 minutes of time for each of them that's 5000 minutes or <em>two full work weeks</em></span>
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<span class="chatlog__edited-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 01:20 PM">(edited)</span>
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-820405937600331798" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="820405937600331798">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/8bbce81d74ba142434988d9baee7f26e-1DC70.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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</div>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title=".bmp#5134" data-user-id="327294362134511619">.bmp</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 01:20 PM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Part of the problem can also be the programmer/designer not having a very solid concept of what the option does themselves</span>
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-820406028004360213" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="820406028004360213">
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 01:20 PM">13:20</div>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">They understand what it does intuitively but it's just outside their ability to solidify the concept into clear and concise terminology</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title=".bmp#5134">.bmp</div>
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<span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '820405937600331798')">
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Part of the problem can also be the programmer/designer not having a very solid concept of what the option does themselves </span>
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</div>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="bvisness#0001" data-user-id="132715550571888640">bvisness</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 01:20 PM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">yes, which is a good reason to design it without config first</span>
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title=".bmp#5134" data-user-id="327294362134511619">.bmp</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 01:20 PM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Often because the things that software does <em>are</em> abstract or difficult to find words for</span>
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-820406193397956628" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="820406193397956628">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 01:21 PM">13:21</div>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">(Hence the shitstorm of overlapping/bad terminology in the software world)</span>
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-820406506511269938" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="820406506511269938">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 01:22 PM">13:22</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Another thing that can be useful here is <em>demonstrating the change</em></span>
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</div>
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-820406539591614525" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="820406539591614525">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 01:22 PM">13:22</div>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">So like, having a little animation that shows before/after</span>
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 01:22 PM">13:22</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">If the setting is visually communicable</span>
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="KawaiiKiwi#8166" data-user-id="170376556173066241">Voran</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 01:23 PM</span>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Not all settings have to be visual, I don't think.</span>
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title=".bmp#5134" data-user-id="327294362134511619">.bmp</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 01:23 PM</span>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Hence the word "if" <img loading="lazy" class="chatlog__emoji " alt="😛" title="stuck_out_tongue" src="files\twemoji_1f61b.svg"></span>
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<span class="chatlog__edited-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 01:23 PM">(edited)</span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title=".bmp#5134" data-user-id="327294362134511619">.bmp</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 01:24 PM</span>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I've seen this done particularly in smartphone apps and it usually works out pretty well</span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="Skytrias#8787" data-user-id="104835409523048448">Skytrias (Michael)</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 01:24 PM</span>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">would be doable for some options sure</span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="Skytrias#8787" data-user-id="104835409523048448">Skytrias (Michael)</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 01:26 PM</span>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">but yea i think options are bad for programmers too, another source for bugs to occur, especially if you dont use a specific option and it might bug out unknowingly</span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="KawaiiKiwi#8166" data-user-id="170376556173066241">Voran</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 01:28 PM</span>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I'd like to make the point again that options themselves aren't bad. The issues that Demitri mentioned that make them more of configurations than options make them harder to work with though, such as if they're not changed often or the changes are hard to detect in the output</span>
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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</div>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="bvisness#0001" data-user-id="132715550571888640">bvisness</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 01:29 PM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Since we're now about 2.5 hours in, and I'm thinking it's nearly time to wrap this up, I wanted to just quickly highlight some of the stuff we covered in this conversation:
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- We established some vocabulary for talking about configuration
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- We highlighted the benefits and costs of config, for several different aspects of config
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- We found that design is critically important even for configurable systems, and found that having configuration as a goal can hamper your design
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- We found some concrete advice and questions you can ask to help drive yourself toward smarter design and less config</span>
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</div>
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-820408390228508694" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="820408390228508694">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 01:30 PM">13:30</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Are there any final topics to cover, or lingering questions any of you have?</span>
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-820408562912067605" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="820408562912067605">
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 01:30 PM">13:30</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">This conversation can always continue outside this fishbowl as well. I'm sure we'll all be dealing with these design questions all the time going forward.</span>
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/89747c254631bcfd05c5c3e7141389aa-A1FB9.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 01:31 PM</span>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">that all sounds good to me, I'll just wrap up my portion by reiterating viewing configuration as a cost that should pay itself back ... or to put it in a more positive light, as an attempt at an <em>investment</em></span>
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-820408949970698270" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="820408949970698270">
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 01:32 PM">13:32</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">so when you do it, you should have an idea of what it is you are buying for your users and for yourself</span>
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</div>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="Skytrias#8787" data-user-id="104835409523048448">Skytrias (Michael)</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 01:32 PM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">maybe also <span class="chatlog__markdown-pre chatlog__markdown-pre--inline">when you store options in a file, it should be a readable format</span></span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="bvisness#0001" data-user-id="132715550571888640">bvisness</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 01:33 PM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">that seems like an awfully granular and specific takeaway</span>
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/a8391685ad8f7a9ee9d790b967364cb7-2AE0A.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="Skytrias#8787" data-user-id="104835409523048448">Skytrias (Michael)</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 01:33 PM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">true haha</span>
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<div class="chatlog__message-group">
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-820409268976877608" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="820409268976877608">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/1963eacbf364164efce1c597dc66aeab-E6901.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="bvisness#0001" data-user-id="132715550571888640">bvisness</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 01:33 PM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I think another thing we established through this convo is also that configuration can take many forms</span>
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</div>
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-820409330255265792" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="820409330255265792">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 01:33 PM">13:33</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">and those forms can continue to impact the cost your users are asked to bear</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/8bbce81d74ba142434988d9baee7f26e-1DC70.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title=".bmp#5134" data-user-id="327294362134511619">.bmp</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 01:34 PM</span>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I think a pervasive problem in this discussion has been returning to things like config files and text editors etc</span>
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 01:34 PM">13:34</div>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Things that nobody but programmers cares about</span>
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 01:34 PM">13:34</div>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">If you have a config file (that you expect users to interact with) for consumer software you have failed</span>
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<span class="chatlog__edited-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 01:34 PM">(edited)</span>
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<span class="chatlog__reaction-count">2</span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="Skytrias#8787" data-user-id="104835409523048448">Skytrias (Michael)</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 01:34 PM</span>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">over configuration can also be a pain - every website forcing you to fill out cookie permissions</span>
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 01:35 PM">13:35</div>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">i really hate using the web nowadays</span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="bvisness#0001" data-user-id="132715550571888640">bvisness</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 01:35 PM</span>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I really, really, really do not want anyone to come away from this discussion thinking this somehow only applies to programmer tools. This applies to everything.</span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="bvisness#0001" data-user-id="132715550571888640">bvisness</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 01:35 PM</span>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Programmer tools are familiar to us all, and frequently <em>terrible</em> examples of design. But they are the tip of the iceberg here.</span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="bvisness#0001" data-user-id="132715550571888640">bvisness</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 01:36 PM</span>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Even if your users are programmers and <em>like</em> configuration, you would do them all a favor by directing their attention to what matters.</span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title=".bmp#5134" data-user-id="327294362134511619">.bmp</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 01:35 PM</span>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">It applies <em>especially</em> to everything</span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title=".bmp#5134" data-user-id="327294362134511619">.bmp</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 01:35 PM</span>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Programmers are the only audience in which some members are okay with or even like configuration</span>
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 01:36 PM">13:36</div>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Because what is programming except configuring hardware and libraries to do what you want</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 01:37 PM</span>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">So if your model of what a user wants is based on programmer things, you're sorely falling short of the mark and vastly underestimating how much the ordinary user despises, and is frustrated/intimidated by any and all configuration beyond "turn notifications on/off" "light theme/dark theme" etc</span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="KawaiiKiwi#8166" data-user-id="170376556173066241">Voran</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 01:38 PM</span>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Making actual design decisions instead of saying "I don't know, make it a config option" can be very valuable. You'll understand what the tradeoffs are once you have an actual use case for the other config option, and you can decide if the benefits are worth the cost you pay.</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 01:38 PM</span>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">On that note there was one other point I wanted to get in related to forcing first-time configuration, which is just how smooth and well-designed the experience feels when a new application drops you right in with no config or introduction and makes good default assumptions and good use of system-wide settings</span>
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 01:39 PM">13:39</div>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">When you open a new app and it's already dark theme because your phone is dark theme for example</span>
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 01:39 PM">13:39</div>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">The lack of a hard barrier between "I don't have this app" and "I'm a comfortable user of this app" is hard to overstate in terms of getting users to <em>like</em> your software</span>
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 01:39 PM">13:39</div>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">And that barrier is where a lot of people will close the app and never open it again</span>
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 01:40 PM">13:40</div>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">(Or just never have it set up the way they want, despite there being settings for it, and always having a low-grade frustration with the experience)</span>
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<div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="KawaiiKiwi#8166">Voran</div>
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<span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '820410606132658210')">
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Making actual design decisions instead of saying "I don't know, make it a config option" can be very valuable. You'll understand what the tradeoffs are once you have an actual use case for the other config option, and you can decide if the benefits are worth the cost you pay. </span>
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title=".bmp#5134" data-user-id="327294362134511619">.bmp</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 01:41 PM</span>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Yes along these lines it's worth noting that nobody understands the tradeoffs better than the designer (or at least, if that's not the case, you have a problem)</span>
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-820411647775735850" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="820411647775735850">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 01:42 PM">13:42</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">There may come a time when your advanced users have a better model of some parts of the problem space than you do, but it's important to remember that they are not the common use case and therefore their experiences/opinions are not necessarily reflective of average users</span>
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<div class="chatlog__message-group">
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-820412558544338974" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="820412558544338974">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/71ecf1f788f1530928078a8fd18a3111-341F5.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="Wayward#3376" data-user-id="366605940524580867">Wayward</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 01:46 PM</span>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">i'm gonna call it a day personally, been getting sleepy faster than i thought</span>
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<div class="chatlog__message-group">
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-820412632291868695" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="820412632291868695">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/1963eacbf364164efce1c597dc66aeab-E6901.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="bvisness#0001" data-user-id="132715550571888640">bvisness</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 01:46 PM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">yep, I think we have nicely reached the end here</span>
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</div>
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-820412681940762624" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="820412681940762624">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/b032bf22b6696de1f403e43c3bdd4613-55F4A.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="KawaiiKiwi#8166" data-user-id="170376556173066241">Voran</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 01:47 PM</span>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I'd like to thank <span class="chatlog__markdown-mention" title="demetrispanos#5588">@demetrispanos</span> for this fishbowl idea</span>
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<div class="chatlog__message-group">
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-820412739615850527" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="820412739615850527">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/a8391685ad8f7a9ee9d790b967364cb7-2AE0A.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="Skytrias#8787" data-user-id="104835409523048448">Skytrias (Michael)</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 01:47 PM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">yea was interesting, definitely helped me out a lot</span>
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-820412809023717396" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="820412809023717396">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/1963eacbf364164efce1c597dc66aeab-E6901.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="bvisness#0001" data-user-id="132715550571888640">bvisness</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 01:47 PM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Yes, absolutely. I'm very glad to have done a fishbowl prompted organically by the conversations we were having around here!</span>
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<span class="chatlog__edited-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 01:47 PM">(edited)</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-group">
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-820412821594308629" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="820412821594308629">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/89747c254631bcfd05c5c3e7141389aa-A1FB9.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 01:47 PM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I'm glad other people share some of my sentiments on this subject!</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-group">
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-820413078973317121" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="820413078973317121">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/1963eacbf364164efce1c597dc66aeab-E6901.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="bvisness#0001" data-user-id="132715550571888640">bvisness</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Mar 13, 2021 01:48 PM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Thanks all for participating! I found this super enlightening and interesting, and I hope you all did as well.</span>
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</div>
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-820413263736078387" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="820413263736078387">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="13-Mar-21 01:49 PM">13:49</div>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">As always, you can check the pinned messages to read the whole conversation from the beginning. See you at the next fishbowl!</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__reactions">
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<div class="chatlog__reaction" title="fishbowl">
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<img class="chatlog__emoji chatlog__emoji--small" alt="fishbowl" src="files/707755812277321760-F2EB5.png" loading="lazy">
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<span class="chatlog__reaction-count">6</span>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div> |