8614 lines
340 KiB
HTML
8614 lines
340 KiB
HTML
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="Wayward#3376" data-user-id="366605940524580867">Wayward</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 09:59 AM</span>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Topic: Code skimmability as the root cause for bad code structure decisions</span>
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<span class="chatlog__reaction-count">5</span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="AsafGartner#0955" data-user-id="239737951410454528">AsafGartner</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 09:59 AM</span>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I want to start by explaining what I mean by skimmability.
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Skimmable code tends to have consistent shapes and is relatively uniform across the codebase.
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This makes the code recognizable without reading the details and allows for a relatively fast read of the code.
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It seems that this is:
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1. Desireable
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2. Makes programmers think they understand the code even though they missed the details
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Apart from #2, it appears that writing for skimmability limits your options regarding code structure. Long functions or dense lines are not skimmable. Instead we see codebases with a million files that do "only one thing", lots of classes, single-line functions, getters/setters everywhere and heaps of syntactic sugar.
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My opening argument is that I don't think much of the code structure issues we usually see are a results of bad theoretical ideas about "good code", but instead result from the desire to write skimmable code. (or perhaps the bad theories are just constructed such that they result in skimmable code?)
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I don't think code needs to be skimmable at all and we should try to avoid skimming code even if it is skimmable in order to understand it properly.</span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="bumbread27#9116" data-user-id="456226577798135808">bumbread</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 10:01 AM</span>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">So the first I'm curious to discuss is what makes the code skimmable. Which patterns do make the code skimmable, and how do they affect the code</span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="AsafGartner#0955" data-user-id="239737951410454528">AsafGartner</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 10:02 AM</span>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">It's about making code recognizable at a glance.</span>
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="14-Jan-21 10:02 AM">10:02</div>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">And building a sort of mental database of those shapes in a codebase, so the meaning of code shapes can be specific to a codebase.</span>
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="14-Jan-21 10:02 AM">10:02</div>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">By shapes I mean something like this:</span>
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="14-Jan-21 10:02 AM">10:02</div>
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<a href="files/image-59737.png" target="_blank">
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<img class="chatlog__attachment-media" src="files/image-59737.png" alt="Image attachment" title="Image: image.png (2.24 KB)" loading="lazy" width="300px">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="Aelthalyste#1159" data-user-id="382979775909855233">Aelthalyste</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 10:03 AM</span>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">But then, if you think there shouldnt be obligation about skimmability, what happens when you refactoring-rewriting some parts of the code</span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="AsafGartner#0955" data-user-id="239737951410454528">AsafGartner</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 10:03 AM</span>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">You might get an idea for what this does without reading it.</span>
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<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/6d80b92b4cf9313aeb1c332b65c48f63-50810.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="Aelthalyste#1159" data-user-id="382979775909855233">Aelthalyste</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 10:03 AM</span>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">You may have to put more time than it needs to be</span>
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="14-Jan-21 10:03 AM">10:03</div>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I think there should be mid point</span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="bumbread27#9116" data-user-id="456226577798135808">bumbread</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 10:03 AM</span>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">yeah. if/while (something) do some object method calls or field access chain :D</span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="AsafGartner#0955" data-user-id="239737951410454528">AsafGartner</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 10:04 AM</span>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Oh, I'm not suggesting that you need to achieve some sort of 100% compression to the code. Just that skimmability is not something you need to move towards. If it happens naturally then it's fine.</span>
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<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/6d80b92b4cf9313aeb1c332b65c48f63-50810.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="Aelthalyste#1159" data-user-id="382979775909855233">Aelthalyste</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 10:04 AM</span>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">If you like, writing for new codebase, or its a completely new topic to you, you are going to rewrite it</span>
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<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/6d80b92b4cf9313aeb1c332b65c48f63-50810.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="Aelthalyste#1159" data-user-id="382979775909855233">Aelthalyste</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 10:04 AM</span>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">and when it happens, you will want to understand the code, without wasting too much time on it</span>
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<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/0-EB806.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="AsafGartner#0955" data-user-id="239737951410454528">AsafGartner</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 10:04 AM</span>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">But I would say that if you're rewriting some code, you should probably read it carefully first to make sure you're rewriting it properly?</span>
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<div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="AsafGartner#0955">AsafGartner</div>
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But I would say that if you're rewriting some code, you should probably read it carefully first to make sure you're rewriting it properly? </span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="Aelthalyste#1159" data-user-id="382979775909855233">Aelthalyste</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 10:05 AM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Probably, but skimmability might shrink that time too</span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="bvisness#0001" data-user-id="132715550571888640">bvisness</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 10:05 AM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Just to provide a little extra context, here is Asaf's original topic pitch: <a href="https://github.com/AsafGartner/hmn_fishbowl/discussions/1" target="_blank">https://github.com/AsafGartner/hmn_fishbowl/discussions/1</a></span>
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<div class="chatlog__embed-title">
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<a class="chatlog__embed-title-link" href="https://github.com/AsafGartner/hmn_fishbowl/discussions/1">
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<div class="chatlog__markdown chatlog__markdown-preserve">Code skimmability as the root cause for bad code structure decision...</div>
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</a>
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<a class="chatlog__embed-thumbnail-link" href="files/opengraph-563E5.png">
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</a>
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<div class="chatlog__reaction" title="thumbsup">
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<img class="chatlog__emoji chatlog__emoji--small" alt="👍" src="files/1f44d-B3F5F.svg" loading="lazy">
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<span class="chatlog__reaction-count">1</span>
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-799338373718212648" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="799338373718212648">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="14-Jan-21 10:05 AM">10:05</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">And I'll quote the thesis here:
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<div class="chatlog__markdown-quote"><div class="chatlog__markdown-quote-border"></div><div class="chatlog__markdown-quote-content">Code doesn't need to be skimmable, because no one should be skimming code. You should either read it carefully or skip it entirely.
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You don't want to end up in a situation where you think you understand the code when you actually don't.
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Once you give up on skimmability, you can focus on writing code that is clear when the programmer sits down to read it carefully, but you don't need to make it readable at a glance. A lot of classical readability constraints go away.
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Much of today's code readability ideas, of having small classes/functions/files, only aid in skimmability.</div></div></span>
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-799338570720477214" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="799338570720477214">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/1963eacbf364164efce1c597dc66aeab-E6901.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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</div>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="bvisness#0001" data-user-id="132715550571888640">bvisness</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 10:06 AM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Note that Asaf is not saying that you don't want code to be readable, but that our notion of "readability" may be off and not helpful.</span>
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-799338577489297436" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="799338577489297436">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/0-EB806.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="AsafGartner#0955" data-user-id="239737951410454528">AsafGartner</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 10:06 AM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">How do you know you understand the code if you only skimmed it?</span>
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="14-Jan-21 10:06 AM">10:06</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Yes ^</span>
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-799338738438111262" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="799338738438111262">
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="14-Jan-21 10:06 AM">10:06</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I'm saying that readability and skimmability are different things.</span>
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<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/1963eacbf364164efce1c597dc66aeab-E6901.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="bvisness#0001" data-user-id="132715550571888640">bvisness</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 10:07 AM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I would like to explore that difference</span>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="bumbread27#9116" data-user-id="456226577798135808">bumbread</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 10:07 AM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Same.</span>
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-799338934215639041" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="799338934215639041">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/1-B2132.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="ratchetfreak#1181" data-user-id="269884325082693632">ratchetfreak</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 10:07 AM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">when looking for where you should make the edit having the code be skimmable lets you find the place you are looking for</span>
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-799339037869342737" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="799339037869342737">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="ratchetfreak#1181" data-user-id="269884325082693632">ratchetfreak</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 10:07 AM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">skimmability is important after you understand the code just to navigate through it</span>
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<div class="chatlog__reactions">
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<div class="chatlog__reaction" title="100">
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<img class="chatlog__emoji chatlog__emoji--small" alt="💯" src="files/1f4af-2188D.svg" loading="lazy">
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<span class="chatlog__reaction-count">1</span>
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</div><div class="chatlog__message-group" style="">
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-799339095645487156" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="799339095645487156">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<div class="chatlog__reference-symbol"></div>
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<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/6d80b92b4cf9313aeb1c332b65c48f63-50810.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__reference">
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<img class="chatlog__reference-avatar" src="files/1-B2132.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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<div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="ratchetfreak#1181">ratchetfreak</div>
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<div class="chatlog__reference-content">
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<span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '799338934215639041')">
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when looking for where you should make the edit having the code be skimmable lets you find the place you are looking for </span>
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</div>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="Aelthalyste#1159" data-user-id="382979775909855233">Aelthalyste</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 10:08 AM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Yep thats what I was trying to say</span>
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-799338936211603486" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="799338936211603486">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/71ecf1f788f1530928078a8fd18a3111-341F5.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="Wayward#3376" data-user-id="366605940524580867">Wayward</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 10:07 AM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">small classes is nice to a point, but it can be done in excess, and i'd argue that extreme amounts of small classes hinders readability if there's no descriptive naming</span>
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-799339267608412180" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="799339267608412180">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/0-EB806.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="AsafGartner#0955" data-user-id="239737951410454528">AsafGartner</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 10:08 AM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I think there's a difference between finding your place in the code and understanding the code.</span>
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/0-EB806.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="AsafGartner#0955" data-user-id="239737951410454528">AsafGartner</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 10:09 AM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">You would skim the code to find your place, but you wouldn't think you understand what you skimmed.</span>
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</div>
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</div>
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-799339383697440768" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="799339383697440768">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="14-Jan-21 10:09 AM">10:09</div>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Which is fine.</span>
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<div class="chatlog__message-group">
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-799339633510711296" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="799339633510711296">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__reference-symbol"></div>
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<div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="AsafGartner#0955">AsafGartner</div>
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You would skim the code to find your place, but you wouldn't think you understand what you skimmed. </span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="ratchetfreak#1181" data-user-id="269884325082693632">ratchetfreak</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 10:10 AM</span>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">but both fall under skimability and if you try and block the second you necessarily hurt the first</span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="AsafGartner#0955" data-user-id="239737951410454528">AsafGartner</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 10:10 AM</span>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I think you can achieve that level of skimmability with comments or spacing or other things, it doesn't necessarily require changes to the structure of the code.</span>
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<span class="chatlog__edited-timestamp" title="14-Jan-21 10:10 AM">(edited)</span>
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="14-Jan-21 10:11 AM">10:11</div>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Maybe we should start with a step back a bit. The goal of reading code is to upload/update your mental model of the code.</span>
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="14-Jan-21 10:11 AM">10:11</div>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Readable code is one that makes that process efficient. First in terms of the integrity of the upload, and second in terms of speed.</span>
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<span class="chatlog__reaction-count">2</span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="bumbread27#9116" data-user-id="456226577798135808">bumbread</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 10:09 AM</span>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">In my opinion readability is a quality of the code that can only be structured by it's overall architecture/design. It isn't about the geometry, the math behind the code, but more about algorithms and how easy you can recognize them. If you're doing something more complex than it needs to be, than it has bad readability.</span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="bumbread27#9116" data-user-id="456226577798135808">bumbread</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 10:13 AM</span>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Readability requires that the code is easy to tweak/modify. Then If the skimmability achievement is done via separating a piece of code into another function, then I'd say that it <em>can</em> hurt readability, since separation into a function.</span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="ryanfleury#4528" data-user-id="137051765328576512">ryanfleury (audience)</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 10:11 AM</span>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Seems like the terminology suggests that reading vs. skimming is about two different <a class="inserted-after" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Level_of_detail_(writing)" target="_blank">LOD</a>s... reading => carefully understanding a block of code, skimming => looking at a few non-leaf-nodes of the tree of code briefly</span>
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<span class="chatlog__edited-timestamp" title="14-Jan-21 10:11 AM">(edited)</span>
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="14-Jan-21 10:11 AM">10:11</div>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">So it seems like there's a "spectrum" of readability, and sometimes you want to shift between higher LODs and lower LODs</span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="Wayward#3376" data-user-id="366605940524580867">Wayward</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 10:12 AM</span>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">where are you going with the LOD terminology <span class="chatlog__markdown-mention" title="ryanfleury#4528">@ryanfleury</span> ?</span>
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<div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="" title="Wayward#3376">Wayward</div>
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where are you going with the LOD terminology <span class="chatlog__markdown-mention" title="ryanfleury#4528">@ryanfleury</span> ? </span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="ryanfleury#4528" data-user-id="137051765328576512">ryanfleury (audience)</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 10:12 AM</span>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Just referring to code as a tree. Sometimes you care about higher level details (stuff higher up in the tree), sometimes you care about specifics (leaf-nodes, lower levels in the tree)</span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="AsafGartner#0955" data-user-id="239737951410454528">AsafGartner</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 10:13 AM</span>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I generally agree with what <span class="chatlog__markdown-mention" title="ryanfleury#4528">@ryanfleury</span> said. At a high level you can skim to find your place, but when actually doing work on the code you want the details.</span>
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="14-Jan-21 10:14 AM">10:14</div>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve"><span class="chatlog__markdown-mention" title="bumbread27#9116">@bumbread</span> exactly. The structure of the code changes to accommodate skimmability, thereby hurting the integrity of the upload.</span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="bvisness#0001" data-user-id="132715550571888640">bvisness</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 10:14 AM</span>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I like Asaf's breakdown there, so what are aspects that make code better and faster at communicating what is happening?</span>
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="14-Jan-21 10:14 AM">10:14</div>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">For "integrity of the upload", I don't think formatting and whitespace have anything to do with it.</span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="bvisness#0001" data-user-id="132715550571888640">bvisness</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 10:15 AM</span>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Instead I would think it's more about the structure of the program, how much indirection there is, that kind of thing. Although possibly comments could help in some more confusing cases.</span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="Wayward#3376" data-user-id="366605940524580867">Wayward</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 10:15 AM</span>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">a highly consistent and logical structure used throughout the code, although i'm somewhat confused about why the word integrity is getting dragged into this</span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="ratchetfreak#1181" data-user-id="269884325082693632">ratchetfreak</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 10:15 AM</span>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">consistency in style does help over a project</span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="ratchetfreak#1181" data-user-id="269884325082693632">ratchetfreak</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 10:16 AM</span>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I'm sure everyone here indents there blocks</span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos (audience)</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 10:13 AM</span>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">in practice I think there's no avoiding skimming</span>
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="14-Jan-21 10:13 AM">10:13</div>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">it's just not how brains work, to either completely ignore something or to read it linearly in detail</span>
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="14-Jan-21 10:13 AM">10:13</div>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">in fact, the natural human behavior is the opposite</span>
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="14-Jan-21 10:14 AM">10:14</div>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">progressive investment of attention based on low-cost cues looking for valuable information</span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="ryanfleury#4528" data-user-id="137051765328576512">ryanfleury (audience)</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 10:14 AM</span>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Yeah, it seems like you want a knob, and often times you'll want that knob tuned down (to only view high level details) to skim around/find your place</span>
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="14-Jan-21 10:14 AM">10:14</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">And then if you want to carefully read a procedure, dial that knob up, see closer details</span>
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="14-Jan-21 10:15 AM">10:15</div>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">To the consistency point, having a consistent language you use in a codebase helps a <em>lot</em> I find</span>
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="14-Jan-21 10:16 AM">10:16</div>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">For example, one thing I've adopted recently is any time you have "conversions" between types (or implied types), e.g. extracting information, I use <span class="chatlog__markdown-pre chatlog__markdown-pre--inline">XFromY</span> naming</span>
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-799341142251667487" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="799341142251667487">
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="14-Jan-21 10:16 AM">10:16</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">e.g. <span class="chatlog__markdown-pre chatlog__markdown-pre--inline">StringFromNode</span>, <span class="chatlog__markdown-pre chatlog__markdown-pre--inline">ChildFromString</span>, <span class="chatlog__markdown-pre chatlog__markdown-pre--inline">ChildFromStringAndTag</span></span>
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-799341151936577578" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="799341151936577578">
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<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/89747c254631bcfd05c5c3e7141389aa-A1FB9.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos (audience)</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 10:16 AM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">in fact, even when you're "reading deeply" you're still skimming, your brain won't let you do anything else</span>
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-799341191987462165" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="799341191987462165">
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="14-Jan-21 10:16 AM">10:16</div>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I'm sure you've had the experience of re-reading a paragraph 10 times to proofread</span>
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</div>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="ryanfleury#4528" data-user-id="137051765328576512">ryanfleury (audience)</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 10:16 AM</span>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Oh yeah</span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos (audience)</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 10:16 AM</span>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">and you just don't see the misspelling, because your brain assumes it's correct</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="AsafGartner#0955" data-user-id="239737951410454528">AsafGartner</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 10:16 AM</span>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">So, I think some of the problem is with the programmer. There's a natural tendency to skim (as <span class="chatlog__markdown-mention" title="demetrispanos#5588">@demetrispanos</span> mentioned) and it's useful to notice when it happens.</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="ratchetfreak#1181" data-user-id="269884325082693632">ratchetfreak</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 10:16 AM</span>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">skimming will always happen when you think you know the code well enough</span>
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="14-Jan-21 10:17 AM">10:17</div>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">you aren't going to detail read the same function a dozen times over</span>
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/0-EB806.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="bumbread27#9116" data-user-id="456226577798135808">bumbread</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 10:18 AM</span>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I usually skim the code until I find the relevant piece and then read that piece (5-10 lines) carefully, if i need to.</span>
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-799341645169426455" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="799341645169426455">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="AsafGartner#0955" data-user-id="239737951410454528">AsafGartner</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 10:18 AM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">True. The main difference should be when writing the code. The goal should be to make it easy to read for someone who is paying attention, not to make the code look pretty/simple at a glance.</span>
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<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/1-B2132.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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<div class="chatlog__reference">
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<img class="chatlog__reference-avatar" src="files/0-EB806.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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<div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="AsafGartner#0955">AsafGartner</div>
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<div class="chatlog__reference-content">
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<span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '799341645169426455')">
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True. The main difference should be when writing the code. The goal should be to make it easy to read for someone who is paying attention, not to make the code look pretty/simple at a glance. </span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="ratchetfreak#1181" data-user-id="269884325082693632">ratchetfreak</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 10:18 AM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">but for a practiced person those end up being correlated</span>
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/e2d8d41642ab506856842f35a14d0182-CDCD1.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(244, 127, 255)" title="rexollycounty#5648" data-user-id="208957354287431682">rexollycounty</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 10:18 AM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">i think this is often why people have syntax highlighting in their code, it helps navigate easier. i find i will get lost (even when i know the code well) if there aren't hints like whitespace or highlighting</span>
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-799341786153353227" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="799341786153353227">
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<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/1963eacbf364164efce1c597dc66aeab-E6901.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="bvisness#0001" data-user-id="132715550571888640">bvisness</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 10:18 AM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I still think there's a worthwhile distinction between "readable" and "skimmable". In terms of prose, I would consider <em>readable</em> text to be concise and clear, explaining things well. Where <em>skimmable</em> text is more about the structure, paragraph breaks, headings, that kind of thing.</span>
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<div class="chatlog__reaction" title="100">
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<img class="chatlog__emoji chatlog__emoji--small" alt="💯" src="files/1f4af-2188D.svg" loading="lazy">
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<span class="chatlog__reaction-count">4</span>
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</div>
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-799341806624964678" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="799341806624964678">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="14-Jan-21 10:18 AM">10:18</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Those are mostly independent.</span>
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/e2d8d41642ab506856842f35a14d0182-CDCD1.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(244, 127, 255)" title="rexollycounty#5648" data-user-id="208957354287431682">rexollycounty</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 10:19 AM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">so skimmable would fall in the category more with pure presentation?</span>
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-799342088515878982" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="799342088515878982">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/71ecf1f788f1530928078a8fd18a3111-341F5.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="Wayward#3376" data-user-id="366605940524580867">Wayward</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 10:20 AM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">i'm thinking more along the lines of code should be friendly towards manual searching</span>
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-799342161630855209" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="799342161630855209">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/0-EB806.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="AsafGartner#0955" data-user-id="239737951410454528">AsafGartner</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 10:20 AM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve"><span class="chatlog__markdown-mention" title="rexollycounty#5648">@rexollycounty</span> presentation and repetition of that structure across the codebase.</span>
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</div>
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-799342244083269672" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="799342244083269672">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="14-Jan-21 10:20 AM">10:20</div>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">And consistency of density (usually low density).</span>
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<div class="chatlog__message-group">
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-799341945624985620" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="799341945624985620">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/89747c254631bcfd05c5c3e7141389aa-A1FB9.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(233, 30, 99)" title="demetrispanos#5588" data-user-id="239823533989953546">demetrispanos (audience)</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 10:19 AM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">regarding ben's point, one can analogize to good paragraph structure</span>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-799342053430526013" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="799342053430526013">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="14-Jan-21 10:19 AM">10:19</div>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">a paragraph supports skimming if the first sentence gives you a good understanding of what you'll find in the rest (so you can decide, with low cost, if you need to read the whole thing)</span>
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</div>
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-799342238173888544" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="799342238173888544">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="14-Jan-21 10:20 AM">10:20</div>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">if a paragraph jumps around to unrelated subjects, or separates subjects from modifiers with a large distance or whatever, then the spatial structure of the paragraph is fighting your desire to extract information efficiently</span>
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-799342441437855794" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="799342441437855794">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/e666f2aa4fa50eade7484de6a45639dc-A5D0D.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(52, 152, 219)" title="ryanfleury#4528" data-user-id="137051765328576512">ryanfleury (audience)</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 10:21 AM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">That makes a lot of sense; in a sense a paragraph is giving you a good setup for good decompression of a skim</span>
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<span class="chatlog__edited-timestamp" title="14-Jan-21 10:21 AM">(edited)</span>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-799342515487637585" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="799342515487637585">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="14-Jan-21 10:21 AM">10:21</div>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">It gives you hints for predicting what is in the meat of the paragraph</span>
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</div>
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</div>
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-799342606609678347" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="799342606609678347">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="14-Jan-21 10:22 AM">10:22</div>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Which means your skimming will work more for you, less wasteful of a decompression of the language</span>
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</div>
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-799342975490064394" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="799342975490064394">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="14-Jan-21 10:23 AM">10:23</div>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">On syntax highlighting---and this is something I want to do in my <a class="inserted-after" href="http://4coder.net/" target="_blank">4coder</a> custom layer (and <a class="inserted-after" href="https://media.handmade-seattle.com/dion-systems/" target="_blank">Dion</a>)---I am really interested in different "visors" (language stolen from <span class="chatlog__markdown-mention" title="Allen4th#9584">@Allen4th</span>) when viewing code.</span>
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</div>
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</div>
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-799343078607421452" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="799343078607421452">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="14-Jan-21 10:24 AM">10:24</div>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Often times, syntax highlighting is just this rainbow of colors, and it washes out all the meaning.</span>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-799343138237055028" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="799343138237055028">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="14-Jan-21 10:24 AM">10:24</div>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">But if you could turn on, for example, <em>no syntax highlighting</em> except for function calls, or the same with macros, etc.</span>
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-799343154465210429" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="799343154465210429">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="14-Jan-21 10:24 AM">10:24</div>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">That might be a lot more useful.</span>
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</div>
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</div>
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-799343425022984243" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="799343425022984243">
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="14-Jan-21 10:25 AM">10:25</div>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Basically I want:
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<div class="chatlog__markdown-pre chatlog__markdown-pre--multiline nohighlight">typedef u32 SyntaxFlags;
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enum
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{
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SyntaxFlag_Functions = (1<<0),
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SyntaxFlag_Macros = (1<<1),
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SyntaxFlag_Literals = (1<<2),
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SyntaxFlag_ExternalCode = (1<<3),
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SyntaxFlag_CommentUserNames = (1<<4),
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// etc.
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};</div></span>
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<span class="chatlog__edited-timestamp" title="14-Jan-21 10:25 AM">(edited)</span>
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-799343473559994428" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="799343473559994428">
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="14-Jan-21 10:25 AM">10:25</div>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">And then a way to turn each of these on/off independently</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-group">
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-799342299897135204" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="799342299897135204">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<div class="chatlog__reference-symbol"></div>
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<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/6d80b92b4cf9313aeb1c332b65c48f63-50810.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__reference">
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<img class="chatlog__reference-avatar" src="files/e2d8d41642ab506856842f35a14d0182-CDCD1.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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<div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(244, 127, 255)" title="rexollycounty#5648">rexollycounty</div>
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<div class="chatlog__reference-content">
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<span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '799341738996137994')">
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i think this is often why people have syntax highlighting in their code, it helps navigate easier. i find i will get lost (even when i know the code well) if there aren't hints like whitespace or highlighting </span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="Aelthalyste#1159" data-user-id="382979775909855233">Aelthalyste</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 10:20 AM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Highly disagree, I never navigate through code by just help of the syntax highlighting, your IDE helps lot more than that</span>
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</div>
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-799342373107793951" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="799342373107793951">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="14-Jan-21 10:21 AM">10:21</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">When exploring and searching for particular block in your codebase</span>
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<div class="chatlog__message-group">
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-799342430893506590" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="799342430893506590">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/1-B2132.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="ratchetfreak#1181" data-user-id="269884325082693632">ratchetfreak</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 10:21 AM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">goto definition and stuff</span>
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</div>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-group">
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-799342456302862396" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="799342456302862396">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/0-EB806.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="bumbread27#9116" data-user-id="456226577798135808">bumbread</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 10:21 AM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I would like extend <span class="chatlog__markdown-mention" title="bvisness#0001">@bvisness</span>'s definition of skimmability by pointing out that what's important isn't whether skimmability is good, but what tools should and shouldn't we use in order to achieve skimmability</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-group">
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-799342469329321985" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="799342469329321985">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/6d80b92b4cf9313aeb1c332b65c48f63-50810.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="Aelthalyste#1159" data-user-id="382979775909855233">Aelthalyste</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 10:21 AM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">synax high helps may help readability, i dont think it helps skimmability</span>
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<span class="chatlog__edited-timestamp" title="14-Jan-21 10:21 AM">(edited)</span>
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</div>
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-799342708581072916" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="799342708581072916">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="ratchetfreak#1181" data-user-id="269884325082693632">ratchetfreak</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 10:22 AM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">sure it does, seeing the keywords highlighted draws the eye and it can then help your brain label them as what they are</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-group">
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-799342767729672202" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="799342767729672202">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<div class="chatlog__reference-symbol"></div>
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<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/e2d8d41642ab506856842f35a14d0182-CDCD1.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__reference">
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<img class="chatlog__reference-avatar" src="files/6d80b92b4cf9313aeb1c332b65c48f63-50810.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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<div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="" title="Aelthalyste#1159">Aelthalyste</div>
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<div class="chatlog__reference-content">
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<span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '799342299897135204')">
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Highly disagree, I never navigate through code by just help of the syntax highlighting, your IDE helps lot more than that </span>
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</div>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(244, 127, 255)" title="rexollycounty#5648" data-user-id="208957354287431682">rexollycounty</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 10:22 AM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">in 4coder, things like //NOTE and //HACK are highlighted differently and that often helps me a lot when just skimming so i know what I need to do look at</span>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-799342932163035158" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="799342932163035158">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="14-Jan-21 10:23 AM">10:23</div>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">and like, if i have a block comment without highlighting it's not obvious when skimming if that's code or not</span>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div><div class="chatlog__message-group" style="">
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-799342932591247401" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="799342932591247401">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/6d80b92b4cf9313aeb1c332b65c48f63-50810.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="Aelthalyste#1159" data-user-id="382979775909855233">Aelthalyste</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 10:23 AM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">These things helps how you read code</span>
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</div>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-group" style="">
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-799343296622624788" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="799343296622624788">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<div class="chatlog__reference-symbol"></div>
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<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/6d80b92b4cf9313aeb1c332b65c48f63-50810.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__reference">
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<img class="chatlog__reference-avatar" src="files/e2d8d41642ab506856842f35a14d0182-CDCD1.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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<div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(244, 127, 255)" title="rexollycounty#5648">rexollycounty</div>
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<div class="chatlog__reference-content">
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<span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '799342932163035158')">
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and like, if i have a block comment without highlighting it's not obvious when skimming if that's code or not </span>
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</div>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="Aelthalyste#1159" data-user-id="382979775909855233">Aelthalyste</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 10:24 AM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">fair point</span>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div><div class="chatlog__message-group" style="">
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-799343112199209012" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="799343112199209012">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/1-B2132.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="ratchetfreak#1181" data-user-id="269884325082693632">ratchetfreak</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 10:24 AM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">they also help in jumping to different parts of the code and getting a grasp of the basic structure at a glance</span>
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</div>
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</div><div class="chatlog__message-group" style="">
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-799343127374069770" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="799343127374069770">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/e2d8d41642ab506856842f35a14d0182-CDCD1.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(244, 127, 255)" title="rexollycounty#5648" data-user-id="208957354287431682">rexollycounty</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 10:24 AM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">if i skim something, the only thing highlighted in red will be <span class="chatlog__markdown-pre chatlog__markdown-pre--inline">//NOTE</span> and that's very obvious when scrolling quickly through a big file</span>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div><div class="chatlog__message-group">
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-799343070839046205" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="799343070839046205">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/0-EB806.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="AsafGartner#0955" data-user-id="239737951410454528">AsafGartner</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 10:23 AM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I just want to point out that skimmability is bad only when you think you understand the code that you just skimmed without having read it properly.</span>
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</div>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-group">
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-799343219870662717" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="799343219870662717">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<div class="chatlog__reference-symbol"></div>
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<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/0-EB806.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__reference">
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<img class="chatlog__reference-avatar" src="files/0-EB806.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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<div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="AsafGartner#0955">AsafGartner</div>
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<div class="chatlog__reference-content">
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<span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '799343070839046205')">
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I just want to point out that skimmability is bad only when you think you understand the code that you just skimmed without having read it properly. </span>
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</div>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="bumbread27#9116" data-user-id="456226577798135808">bumbread</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 10:24 AM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">What might the consequences of that be ?</span>
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</div>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-group">
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-799343263177900053" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="799343263177900053">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/1-B2132.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="ratchetfreak#1181" data-user-id="269884325082693632">ratchetfreak</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 10:24 AM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">bugs</span>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-group">
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-799343288103862292" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="799343288103862292">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/0-EB806.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="AsafGartner#0955" data-user-id="239737951410454528">AsafGartner</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 10:24 AM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Yes.</span>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-group">
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-799343328604717116" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="799343328604717116">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/1-B2132.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="ratchetfreak#1181" data-user-id="269884325082693632">ratchetfreak</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 10:25 AM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">if you don't understand the code you will make mistakes when editing it</span>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-group">
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-799343353002065940" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="799343353002065940">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/0-EB806.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="AsafGartner#0955" data-user-id="239737951410454528">AsafGartner</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 10:25 AM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">You think you understand it, you make changes based on that understanding, and you miss all the edge cases.</span>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-799343364850974761" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="799343364850974761">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="14-Jan-21 10:25 AM">10:25</div>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Or sometimes even the main cases.</span>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-group">
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-799343478114222142" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="799343478114222142">
|
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/1-B2132.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
|
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="ratchetfreak#1181" data-user-id="269884325082693632">ratchetfreak</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 10:25 AM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">IME edge cases take up more code area than the main cases though</span>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-group">
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-799343539980468224" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="799343539980468224">
|
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<div class="chatlog__reference-symbol"></div>
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<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/1963eacbf364164efce1c597dc66aeab-E6901.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__reference">
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<img class="chatlog__reference-avatar" src="files/0-EB806.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
|
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<div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="AsafGartner#0955">AsafGartner</div>
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<div class="chatlog__reference-content">
|
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<span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '799343353002065940')">
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You think you understand it, you make changes based on that understanding, and you miss all the edge cases. </span>
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</div>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="bvisness#0001" data-user-id="132715550571888640">bvisness</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 10:25 AM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">This is very common, by the way, when you work on a larger codebase and frequently have to make changes to areas you have never touched before.</span>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-group">
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-799343568438165555" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="799343568438165555">
|
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<div class="chatlog__message">
|
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
|
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<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/1-B2132.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
|
|
</div>
|
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|
|
<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
|
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<div class="chatlog__header">
|
|
<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="ratchetfreak#1181" data-user-id="269884325082693632">ratchetfreak</span>
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|
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 10:25 AM</span>
|
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</div>
|
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
|
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">to the point they can obscure the main case</span>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-group">
|
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-799344146896781374" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="799344146896781374">
|
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<div class="chatlog__message">
|
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
|
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<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/0-EB806.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
|
|
</div>
|
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|
|
<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
|
|
<div class="chatlog__header">
|
|
<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="AsafGartner#0955" data-user-id="239737951410454528">AsafGartner</span>
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|
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 10:28 AM</span>
|
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
|
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">This may be going a bit into information theory (and I am no expert in that), but if you could properly understand a thing by skimming it, doesn't it make it extremely redundant?</span>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-group">
|
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-799344464799465492" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="799344464799465492">
|
|
<div class="chatlog__message">
|
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
|
|
<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/1-B2132.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
|
|
</div>
|
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|
|
<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
|
|
<div class="chatlog__header">
|
|
<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="ratchetfreak#1181" data-user-id="269884325082693632">ratchetfreak</span>
|
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|
|
|
|
<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 10:29 AM</span>
|
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</div>
|
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|
|
<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
|
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">there is already a bunch of redundancy in code</span>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
|
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-799344518062407740" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="799344518062407740">
|
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
|
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="14-Jan-21 10:29 AM">10:29</div>
|
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">it's what makes it so compressible</span>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-group">
|
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-799344592800579604" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="799344592800579604">
|
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<div class="chatlog__message">
|
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
|
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<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/0-EB806.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
|
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</div>
|
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|
|
<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
|
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<div class="chatlog__header">
|
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="bumbread27#9116" data-user-id="456226577798135808">bumbread</span>
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|
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 10:30 AM</span>
|
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</div>
|
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|
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
|
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I could skim through this:
|
|
<div class="chatlog__markdown-pre chatlog__markdown-pre--multiline nohighlight">int min = a[0];
|
|
for(int i = 1; i < arr_len; i += 1) {
|
|
if(a[i] < min) min = a[i];
|
|
}</div>
|
|
and understand what the piece of code does without cheking the signs and stuff.</span>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
|
|
<div id="chatlog__message-container-799344671897026560" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="799344671897026560">
|
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<div class="chatlog__message">
|
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
|
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="14-Jan-21 10:30 AM">10:30</div>
|
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">The bug could be hiding if i put the comparison sign the wrong way, and my skimming would be totally off</span>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
|
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-799344727023419392" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="799344727023419392">
|
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<div class="chatlog__message">
|
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
|
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="14-Jan-21 10:30 AM">10:30</div>
|
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
|
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Or if i named the variable differently (ex: <span class="chatlog__markdown-pre chatlog__markdown-pre--inline">max</span>)</span>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
|
|
<div id="chatlog__message-container-799344893431775242" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="799344893431775242">
|
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<div class="chatlog__message">
|
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
|
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="14-Jan-21 10:31 AM">10:31</div>
|
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">the question is how do you get rid of this and should you</span>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
|
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-799344942300397614" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="799344942300397614">
|
|
<div class="chatlog__message">
|
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
|
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="14-Jan-21 10:31 AM">10:31</div>
|
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
|
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">most people will put this sort of thing out into a function</span>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-group">
|
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-799345091399122975" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="799345091399122975">
|
|
<div class="chatlog__message">
|
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
|
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<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/6d80b92b4cf9313aeb1c332b65c48f63-50810.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
|
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</div>
|
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|
|
<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
|
|
<div class="chatlog__header">
|
|
<span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="Aelthalyste#1159" data-user-id="382979775909855233">Aelthalyste</span>
|
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|
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 10:32 AM</span>
|
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</div>
|
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|
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
|
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">but putting it into a function doesn't make bug/error disappear or makes it clearly observable while skimming</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__reactions">
|
|
<div class="chatlog__reaction" title="100">
|
|
<img class="chatlog__emoji chatlog__emoji--small" alt="💯" src="files/1f4af-2188D.svg" loading="lazy">
|
|
<span class="chatlog__reaction-count">1</span>
|
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</div>
|
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</div>
|
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</div>
|
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</div>
|
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</div>
|
|
<div id="chatlog__message-container-799345137477222430" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="799345137477222430">
|
|
<div class="chatlog__message">
|
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
|
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="14-Jan-21 10:32 AM">10:32</div>
|
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
|
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">it just compress error point to fixed one</span>
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<span class="chatlog__edited-timestamp" title="14-Jan-21 10:33 AM">(edited)</span>
|
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
|
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-799345151217893397" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="799345151217893397">
|
|
<div class="chatlog__message">
|
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
|
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="14-Jan-21 10:32 AM">10:32</div>
|
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</div>
|
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
|
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
|
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">instead of bunch of many</span>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-group">
|
|
<div id="chatlog__message-container-799345580965888010" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="799345580965888010">
|
|
<div class="chatlog__message">
|
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
|
|
<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/0-EB806.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
|
|
</div>
|
|
|
|
<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
|
|
<div class="chatlog__header">
|
|
<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="AsafGartner#0955" data-user-id="239737951410454528">AsafGartner</span>
|
|
|
|
|
|
<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 10:33 AM</span>
|
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</div>
|
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
|
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I think the distinction makes more sense in more involved pieces of code.</span>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-799345626759430175" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="799345626759430175">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="14-Jan-21 10:34 AM">10:34</div>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">There's just not much going on in <span class="chatlog__markdown-mention" title="bumbread27#9116">@bumbread</span>'s example.</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-group">
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-799345666744385566" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="799345666744385566">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<div class="chatlog__reference-symbol"></div>
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<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/0-EB806.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__reference">
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<img class="chatlog__reference-avatar" src="files/0-EB806.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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<div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="" title="bumbread27#9116">bumbread</div>
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<div class="chatlog__reference-content">
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<span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '799344592800579604')">
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I could skim through this:
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<div class="chatlog__markdown-pre chatlog__markdown-pre--multiline nohighlight">int min = a[0];
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for(int i = 1; i < arr_len; i += 1) {
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if(a[i] < min) min = a[i];
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}</div>
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and understand what the piece of code does without cheking the signs and stuff. </span>
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</div>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="bumbread27#9116" data-user-id="456226577798135808">bumbread</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 10:34 AM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__attachment " onclick="">
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<a href="files/unknown-D009E.png" target="_blank">
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<img class="chatlog__attachment-media" src="files/unknown-D009E.png" alt="Image attachment" title="Image: unknown.png (7.43 KB)" loading="lazy" width="300px">
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</a>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-799345693047128064" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="799345693047128064">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="14-Jan-21 10:34 AM">10:34</div>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">:)</span>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-group">
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-799345741490683955" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="799345741490683955">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/0-EB806.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="AsafGartner#0955" data-user-id="239737951410454528">AsafGartner</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 10:34 AM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">That is, you already have that bit of code in your head somewhere, because we all wrote it at some point.</span>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-799345800189837363" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="799345800189837363">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="14-Jan-21 10:34 AM">10:34</div>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">And so in this case filling in after skimming doesn't result in a mistake.</span>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-group">
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-799345895053197365" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="799345895053197365">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/1963eacbf364164efce1c597dc66aeab-E6901.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="bvisness#0001" data-user-id="132715550571888640">bvisness</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 10:35 AM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve"><span class="chatlog__markdown-mention" title="AsafGartner#0955">@AsafGartner</span> It might be worth looking at some code examples.</span>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-799345920859963412" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="799345920859963412">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="14-Jan-21 10:35 AM">10:35</div>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">We had discussed a couple before this fishbowl</span>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-group">
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-799345954682699836" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="799345954682699836">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/71ecf1f788f1530928078a8fd18a3111-341F5.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="Wayward#3376" data-user-id="366605940524580867">Wayward</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 10:35 AM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">i'd have to agree to that</span>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-group">
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-799346041958826015" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="799346041958826015">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/1-B2132.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
|
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="ratchetfreak#1181" data-user-id="269884325082693632">ratchetfreak</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 10:35 AM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">having good grasp of the idioms used in the project will improve skimmability because each idiom is a pattern that can be mentally matched against</span>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-group">
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-799346011566506014" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="799346011566506014">
|
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/0-EB806.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
|
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
|
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<div class="chatlog__header">
|
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="bumbread27#9116" data-user-id="456226577798135808">bumbread</span>
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|
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 10:35 AM</span>
|
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</div>
|
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|
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
|
|
<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve"><span class="chatlog__markdown-pre chatlog__markdown-pre--inline"><a class="inserted-after" href="https://github.com/nothings/stb/blob/af1a5bc352164740c1cc1354942b1c6b72eacb8a/deprecated/stretchy_buffer.h" target="_blank">stb stretchy buffer</a></span> was proposed as one such example</span>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-group">
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-799346124967772171" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="799346124967772171">
|
|
<div class="chatlog__message">
|
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
|
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<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/0-EB806.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
|
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</div>
|
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|
|
<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
|
|
<div class="chatlog__header">
|
|
<span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="bumbread27#9116" data-user-id="456226577798135808">bumbread</span>
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|
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 10:36 AM</span>
|
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
|
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">it fits on one screenfull of code</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__attachment " onclick="">
|
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|
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<a href="files/unknown-D8590.png" target="_blank">
|
|
<img class="chatlog__attachment-media" src="files/unknown-D8590.png" alt="Image attachment" title="Image: unknown.png (75.78 KB)" loading="lazy">
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</a>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-group">
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-799346129787027496" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="799346129787027496">
|
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<div class="chatlog__message">
|
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
|
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<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/6d80b92b4cf9313aeb1c332b65c48f63-50810.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
|
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</div>
|
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
|
|
<div class="chatlog__header">
|
|
<span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="Aelthalyste#1159" data-user-id="382979775909855233">Aelthalyste</span>
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|
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 10:36 AM</span>
|
|
</div>
|
|
|
|
<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
|
|
<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">stretchy buffer is a good starting point</span>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-group">
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-799346222472495125" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="799346222472495125">
|
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
|
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<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/0-EB806.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
|
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</div>
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|
<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
|
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<div class="chatlog__header">
|
|
<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="AsafGartner#0955" data-user-id="239737951410454528">AsafGartner</span>
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|
|
<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 10:36 AM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
|
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Right, so stretchy does two things.</span>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-799346288407740467" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="799346288407740467">
|
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<div class="chatlog__message">
|
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
|
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="14-Jan-21 10:36 AM">10:36</div>
|
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">First of all, it's highly compressed, which I don't think is a requirement.</span>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
|
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-799346383592620032" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="799346383592620032">
|
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<div class="chatlog__message">
|
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
|
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="14-Jan-21 10:37 AM">10:37</div>
|
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
|
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">But even uncompressed it would be fairly compact and require careful reading.</span>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-799346548697071693" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="799346548697071693">
|
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<div class="chatlog__message">
|
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
|
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="14-Jan-21 10:37 AM">10:37</div>
|
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</div>
|
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|
<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
|
|
|
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
|
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">If you compare that to more OOPy implementations of the same thing, those tend to be very long and very sparse.</span>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-group">
|
|
<div id="chatlog__message-container-799346640434495558" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="799346640434495558">
|
|
<div class="chatlog__message">
|
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
|
|
<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/6d80b92b4cf9313aeb1c332b65c48f63-50810.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
|
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</div>
|
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|
<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
|
|
<div class="chatlog__header">
|
|
<span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="Aelthalyste#1159" data-user-id="382979775909855233">Aelthalyste</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 10:38 AM</span>
|
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
|
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">and they wouldnt be skimmable, probably</span>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-group">
|
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-799346756575166524" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="799346756575166524">
|
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<div class="chatlog__message">
|
|
<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
|
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<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/0-EB806.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
|
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</div>
|
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|
|
<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
|
|
<div class="chatlog__header">
|
|
<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="AsafGartner#0955" data-user-id="239737951410454528">AsafGartner</span>
|
|
|
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|
|
<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 10:38 AM</span>
|
|
</div>
|
|
|
|
<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
|
|
<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">They would be skimmable. You would be able to look at each part of it and it would seem understandable.</span>
|
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
|
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-799346874880098364" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="799346874880098364">
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="14-Jan-21 10:39 AM">10:39</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Like, some <span class="chatlog__markdown-pre chatlog__markdown-pre--inline">get(index)</span> function isn't going to make you sweat.</span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="Aelthalyste#1159" data-user-id="382979775909855233">Aelthalyste</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 10:39 AM</span>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Of course not, but hiding your problem behind some obscure things is not gonna help you</span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="AsafGartner#0955" data-user-id="239737951410454528">AsafGartner</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 10:39 AM</span>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Exactly.</span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="Aelthalyste#1159" data-user-id="382979775909855233">Aelthalyste</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 10:39 AM</span>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">It would take more mental time-effort to make reasonable picture of it, at least for me</span>
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<div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="AsafGartner#0955">AsafGartner</div>
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<span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '799346548697071693')">
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If you compare that to more OOPy implementations of the same thing, those tend to be very long and very sparse. </span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="bumbread27#9116" data-user-id="456226577798135808">bumbread</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 10:39 AM</span>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I wonder if that's because people want to put "a name" on pieces of code. Like the same reason you would separate something into a function in order to give that functionality a name. In which case the more involved the piece of code is, the more names it will have. Then isn't it better if you have a more consise code, but instead of separating into functions to put some comments in?</span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(244, 127, 255)" title="rexollycounty#5648" data-user-id="208957354287431682">rexollycounty</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 10:40 AM</span>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">i wonder if some of the motivations behind oop were so that <a class="inserted-after" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unified_Modeling_Language" target="_blank">UML</a> diagrams could be used to make it easier to skim</span>
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-799347356604301373" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="799347356604301373">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="ratchetfreak#1181" data-user-id="269884325082693632">ratchetfreak</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 10:41 AM</span>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">UML definitely supported the OOP mindset</span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="AsafGartner#0955" data-user-id="239737951410454528">AsafGartner</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 10:41 AM</span>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve"><span class="chatlog__markdown-mention" title="bumbread27#9116">@bumbread</span> but why do they want that?</span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="bumbread27#9116" data-user-id="456226577798135808">bumbread</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 10:41 AM</span>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">"readability"/skimmability</span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="Wayward#3376" data-user-id="366605940524580867">Wayward</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 10:41 AM</span>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">it was the hype at the time</span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="ratchetfreak#1181" data-user-id="269884325082693632">ratchetfreak</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 10:42 AM</span>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">UML was supposed to make large complex projects understandable to the layman</span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="Aelthalyste#1159" data-user-id="382979775909855233">Aelthalyste</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 10:42 AM</span>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">but time you spend on making UML, you can make proper code structure that is actually easy to skim</span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="Aelthalyste#1159" data-user-id="382979775909855233">Aelthalyste</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 10:42 AM</span>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">rather than just trying to solve problem, make it dissappear at the first place</span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="bumbread27#9116" data-user-id="456226577798135808">bumbread</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 10:42 AM</span>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I don't think those kinds of people appreciate what i call "a flat code". The stupid code that literally does the things it has to do in order to do what it needs to do. No indirections, no complications.</span>
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/e2d8d41642ab506856842f35a14d0182-CDCD1.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(244, 127, 255)" title="rexollycounty#5648" data-user-id="208957354287431682">rexollycounty</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 10:43 AM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">i think that's part of forcing your code structure to change in order to make it skimmable, which in this case has been a bad idea</span>
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<div class="chatlog__reactions">
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<div class="chatlog__reaction" title="100">
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<img class="chatlog__emoji chatlog__emoji--small" alt="💯" src="files/1f4af-2188D.svg" loading="lazy">
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<span class="chatlog__reaction-count">1</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="bvisness#0001" data-user-id="132715550571888640">bvisness</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 10:43 AM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve"><div class="chatlog__markdown-quote"><div class="chatlog__markdown-quote-border"></div><div class="chatlog__markdown-quote-content">No indirections, no complications.
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</div></div>Indirection is certainly part of it. I think breaking things into many small pieces frequently harms <em>readability</em> by not making execution flow clear. But the same code might be considered "skimmable" by many because it's easy to find a specific piece by name.</span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="AsafGartner#0955" data-user-id="239737951410454528">AsafGartner</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 10:43 AM</span>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve"><span class="chatlog__markdown-mention" title="Aelthalyste#1159">@Aelthalyste</span> I think your concept of skimmability is kind of what I mean by readability. I don't think code needs to be unnecessarily difficult, but many programmers just go in the complete opposite direction, where code is made up of tiny pieces that are each "pleasant", but don't easily come together to make a complete and understandable whole.</span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="Wayward#3376" data-user-id="366605940524580867">Wayward</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 10:44 AM</span>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">i view UML etc more of a "tool" invented to talk to incompetent people in leadership positions</span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="ratchetfreak#1181" data-user-id="269884325082693632">ratchetfreak</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 10:46 AM</span>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">don't pull things out into functions when they don't need to be</span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="ratchetfreak#1181" data-user-id="269884325082693632">ratchetfreak</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 10:46 AM</span>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I dislike std::algorithm style code for that reason, it obscures what actually happens behind a name and janky lambda syntax</span>
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<div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="AsafGartner#0955">AsafGartner</div>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-mention" title="Aelthalyste#1159">@Aelthalyste</span> I think your concept of skimmability is kind of what I mean by readability. I don't think code needs to be unnecessarily difficult, but many programmers just go in the complete opposite direction, where code is made up of tiny pieces that are each "pleasant", but don't easily come together to make a complete and understandable whole. </span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(244, 127, 255)" title="rexollycounty#5648" data-user-id="208957354287431682">rexollycounty</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 10:46 AM</span>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">i think this is an interesting problem that something like dion could solve. for an example of having a function which is composed of lots more function calls that are all in different 'files' there was some idea of being able to inline them in the editor so that you can see the flow of code better without any indirections</span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="AsafGartner#0955" data-user-id="239737951410454528">AsafGartner</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 10:47 AM</span>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve"><span class="chatlog__markdown-mention" title="KawaiiKiwi#8166">@Voran</span> that's a bit of a tough question. One thing, that for me seems fairly easy, but other programmers told me they can't do it as easily, is to try to understand the dependencies of each chunk of code, and try not to put them too far away.</span>
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<div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="AsafGartner#0955">AsafGartner</div>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-mention" title="bumbread27#9116">@bumbread</span> but why do they want that? </span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="bumbread27#9116" data-user-id="456226577798135808">bumbread</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 10:51 AM</span>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">oh and another reason is probably being afraid of repeating oneself. If the same piece of code is written at least twice some will be likely to pull it out into a separate function</span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="Wayward#3376" data-user-id="366605940524580867">Wayward</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 10:52 AM</span>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">that sounds like a case of excessive segregation</span>
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<div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="" title="bumbread27#9116">bumbread</div>
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<span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '799349918309416970')">
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oh and another reason is probably being afraid of repeating oneself. If the same piece of code is written at least twice some will be likely to pull it out into a separate function </span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="Aelthalyste#1159" data-user-id="382979775909855233">Aelthalyste</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 10:52 AM</span>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Don't make things functions unless you are sure that these codepaths exactly want same things</span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="Aelthalyste#1159" data-user-id="382979775909855233">Aelthalyste</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 10:53 AM</span>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Often, when compressing code in order to make it readable-skimmable, we might miss that part</span>
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<span class="chatlog__edited-timestamp" title="14-Jan-21 10:53 AM">(edited)</span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="bumbread27#9116" data-user-id="456226577798135808">bumbread</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 10:53 AM</span>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Right.</span>
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="14-Jan-21 10:53 AM">10:53</div>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Changing that function then may result in a change for codepaths that wanted different things from that function thus making a bug</span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="Aelthalyste#1159" data-user-id="382979775909855233">Aelthalyste</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 10:53 AM</span>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">exactly</span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="bvisness#0001" data-user-id="132715550571888640">bvisness</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 10:54 AM</span>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">That is a really good example of a situation where "skimmability" hurts. It's common to think you can "reuse" something from elsewhere in the code, because it is out on its own and has a name that seems similar to what you want. But later you find out that it was being used for a different purpose and things get ugly.</span>
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="14-Jan-21 10:55 AM">10:55</div>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Well, maybe I shouldn't say that skimmability hurt, but rather the decision to pull it out into its own function for the sake of skimmability</span>
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<div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="bvisness#0001">bvisness</div>
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That is a really good example of a situation where "skimmability" hurts. It's common to think you can "reuse" something from elsewhere in the code, because it is out on its own and has a name that seems similar to what you want. But later you find out that it was being used for a different purpose and things get ugly. </span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="Aelthalyste#1159" data-user-id="382979775909855233">Aelthalyste</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 10:57 AM</span>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Yes, targeting for skimmability might hurt codebase. <span class="chatlog__markdown-mention" title="AsafGartner#0955">@AsafGartner</span> what I mean by skimmability here is, compressing for tiny textual information helps you to skip bunch of code. Rather than seeing 10 lines of operations, you can see 2-3 line of information and this scale non-linearly</span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="bumbread27#9116" data-user-id="456226577798135808">bumbread</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 10:57 AM</span>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">So far we have discussed how segregating the code into functions, while improving skimability, can decrease readability and mantainability. Are there any other factors that potentially improve skimmability?</span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="ratchetfreak#1181" data-user-id="269884325082693632">ratchetfreak</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 10:58 AM</span>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">having the correct brace style</span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="bumbread27#9116" data-user-id="456226577798135808">bumbread</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 10:58 AM</span>
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</div>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">What is "the correct brace style"?</span>
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="14-Jan-21 10:58 AM">10:58</div>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">1TBS?</span>
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="14-Jan-21 10:58 AM">10:58</div>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Exactly</span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="AsafGartner#0955" data-user-id="239737951410454528">AsafGartner</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 11:00 AM</span>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve"><span class="chatlog__markdown-mention" title="Aelthalyste#1159">@Aelthalyste</span> if you <strong>skip</strong> code, I think that's fine. If you end up with an impression that you understand what you skimmed, that's a recipe for disaster. I agree that you don't want an excessive amount of code or code that doesn't make it clear when a meaningful piece ends.</span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="bumbread27#9116" data-user-id="456226577798135808">bumbread</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 11:01 AM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">But we shouldn't turn that into a rule, "don't ever segregate the code since it can decrease the other factors". Rather, we should understand why this happens and have a more concrete: "... don't do it prematurely" part.</span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="Aelthalyste#1159" data-user-id="382979775909855233">Aelthalyste</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 11:01 AM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">but problem starts at "maturely" part <span class="chatlog__markdown-mention" title="bumbread27#9116">@bumbread</span></span>
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="14-Jan-21 11:01 AM">11:01</div>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">isnt it?</span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="AsafGartner#0955" data-user-id="239737951410454528">AsafGartner</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 11:02 AM</span>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I think my general rule is: write for an attentive reader.</span>
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<div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="AsafGartner#0955">AsafGartner</div>
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<span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '799352240099950634')">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-mention" title="Aelthalyste#1159">@Aelthalyste</span> if you <strong>skip</strong> code, I think that's fine. If you end up with an impression that you understand what you skimmed, that's a recipe for disaster. I agree that you don't want an excessive amount of code or code that doesn't make it clear when a meaningful piece ends. </span>
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="Aelthalyste#1159" data-user-id="382979775909855233">Aelthalyste</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 11:03 AM</span>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Yes, <em>skip</em> is the thing you want to do</span>
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<div class="chatlog__reaction" title="100">
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<img class="chatlog__emoji chatlog__emoji--small" alt="💯" src="files/1f4af-2188D.svg" loading="lazy">
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<span class="chatlog__reaction-count">1</span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="bumbread27#9116" data-user-id="456226577798135808">bumbread</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 11:04 AM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">usually the grouping is done via scope blocks and comments, or separating the chunks with new lines</span>
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-799353491742523442" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="799353491742523442">
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(244, 127, 255)" title="rexollycounty#5648" data-user-id="208957354287431682">rexollycounty</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 11:05 AM</span>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">im not sure if it has been said, but often comments are an issue for skimmability because theres the assumption that the comment is correct and up to date</span>
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-799353534004723774" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="799353534004723774">
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="bumbread27#9116" data-user-id="456226577798135808">bumbread</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 11:05 AM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">here's a part of my codebase. Here i used a combination of code blocks and whitespace to group the relevant parts</span>
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<div class="chatlog__attachment " onclick="">
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<a href="files/unknown-CE5DD.png" target="_blank">
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<img class="chatlog__attachment-media" src="files/unknown-CE5DD.png" alt="Image attachment" title="Image: unknown.png (59.06 KB)" loading="lazy">
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</a>
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="14-Jan-21 11:05 AM">11:05</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">actually some people would pull those parts into several functions, which is wrong imo</span>
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<div class="chatlog__reference-symbol"></div>
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<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/1963eacbf364164efce1c597dc66aeab-E6901.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__reference">
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<img class="chatlog__reference-avatar" src="files/e2d8d41642ab506856842f35a14d0182-CDCD1.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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<div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(244, 127, 255)" title="rexollycounty#5648">rexollycounty</div>
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<div class="chatlog__reference-content">
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<span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '799353491742523442')">
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im not sure if it has been said, but often comments are an issue for skimmability because theres the assumption that the comment is correct and up to date </span>
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</div>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="bvisness#0001" data-user-id="132715550571888640">bvisness</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 11:06 AM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I might extend this beyond comments, actually. Code may be edited long after it's written in ways that conflict with the existing names and structure.</span>
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</div>
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</div>
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-799353815609901097" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="799353815609901097">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="14-Jan-21 11:06 AM">11:06</div>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">So there you run the risk of your skim being out of date.</span>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-799355065647235094" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="799355065647235094">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="14-Jan-21 11:11 AM">11:11</div>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">When we were prepping this fishbowl, the thought of code going out of date hadn't occurred to me, and I think it's actually quite relevant to this topic. I've often seen the advice that you should make your code "readable", because comments go out of date and such. But this notion is also true at a larger scale.</span>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-group">
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-799355247792881735" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="799355247792881735">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/1963eacbf364164efce1c597dc66aeab-E6901.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="bvisness#0001" data-user-id="132715550571888640">bvisness</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 11:12 AM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Chunking a program down into many small functions or files feels to me exactly the same as excessively commenting your code. It's just at a scale larger than one function or class.</span>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-799355297398521886" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="799355297398521886">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="14-Jan-21 11:12 AM">11:12</div>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">It's subject to exactly the same kinds of failures.</span>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div><div class="chatlog__message-group" style="">
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-799355341082853376" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="799355341082853376">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/1963eacbf364164efce1c597dc66aeab-E6901.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="bvisness#0001" data-user-id="132715550571888640">bvisness</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 11:12 AM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">And all in the name of "readability"</span>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div><div class="chatlog__message-group" style="">
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-799355162870153277" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="799355162870153277">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/1-B2132.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="ratchetfreak#1181" data-user-id="269884325082693632">ratchetfreak</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 11:12 AM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">dead code can linger for a long time</span>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-group">
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-799355333843091496" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="799355333843091496">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/1-B2132.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="ratchetfreak#1181" data-user-id="269884325082693632">ratchetfreak</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 11:12 AM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">the effective comment is the name of the function</span>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-group">
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-799355383634329602" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="799355383634329602">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/1-B2132.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="ratchetfreak#1181" data-user-id="269884325082693632">ratchetfreak</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 11:12 AM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">which can go out of data as well</span>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-799355598658601002" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="799355598658601002">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="14-Jan-21 11:13 AM">11:13</div>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">comments if there should explain why the code is the way it is and why not another way</span>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div><div class="chatlog__message-group" style="">
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-799355377489543219" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="799355377489543219">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/e2d8d41642ab506856842f35a14d0182-CDCD1.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
|
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(244, 127, 255)" title="rexollycounty#5648" data-user-id="208957354287431682">rexollycounty</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 11:12 AM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">i pretty much exclusively use comments to tell me what to add/change rather than describe the code. to me having comments that describe the code just feels like writing the code twice</span>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-group">
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-799355893111980063" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="799355893111980063">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/0-EB806.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="AsafGartner#0955" data-user-id="239737951410454528">AsafGartner</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 11:14 AM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">How often do you see out of date comments?</span>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-group">
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-799355954046566410" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="799355954046566410">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/1963eacbf364164efce1c597dc66aeab-E6901.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
|
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<div class="chatlog__header">
|
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="bvisness#0001" data-user-id="132715550571888640">bvisness</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 11:15 AM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Less often than out of date names</span>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-799356008786165781" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="799356008786165781">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="14-Jan-21 11:15 AM">11:15</div>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve"><em>especially</em> in the dynamic language world, oh my goodness</span>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-group">
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-799356047936585788" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="799356047936585788">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/1-B2132.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__header">
|
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="ratchetfreak#1181" data-user-id="269884325082693632">ratchetfreak</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 11:15 AM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">in my code? not often at all because I don't leave comments</span>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-group">
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-799356098221047850" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="799356098221047850">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/1963eacbf364164efce1c597dc66aeab-E6901.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="bvisness#0001" data-user-id="132715550571888640">bvisness</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 11:15 AM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">"oh, two years ago we just started passing some other data in here? cool, cool"</span>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-group">
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-799356278614786128" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="799356278614786128">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/0-EB806.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="bumbread27#9116" data-user-id="456226577798135808">bumbread</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 11:16 AM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">my comments were helping my little brain understand the nature of doubly linked lists i used for directory contents storage :D</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__attachment " onclick="">
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<a href="files/unknown-478F3.png" target="_blank">
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<img class="chatlog__attachment-media" src="files/unknown-478F3.png" alt="Image attachment" title="Image: unknown.png (42.61 KB)" loading="lazy">
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</a>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-group">
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-799356315134328892" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="799356315134328892">
|
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<div class="chatlog__message">
|
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
|
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<div class="chatlog__reference-symbol"></div>
|
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<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/0-EB806.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
|
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
|
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<div class="chatlog__reference">
|
|
<img class="chatlog__reference-avatar" src="files/1963eacbf364164efce1c597dc66aeab-E6901.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
|
|
<div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="bvisness#0001">bvisness</div>
|
|
<div class="chatlog__reference-content">
|
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<span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '799355954046566410')">
|
|
Less often than out of date names </span>
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</div>
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</div>
|
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="AsafGartner#0955" data-user-id="239737951410454528">AsafGartner</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 11:16 AM</span>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">One day we should do a fishbowl about code honesty.</span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(244, 127, 255)" title="rexollycounty#5648" data-user-id="208957354287431682">rexollycounty</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 11:16 AM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve"><a href="https://github.com/AcademySoftwareFoundation/openexr/blob/1c0d8f7703da1555378bcf7357b9d2d898246d59/src/lib/OpenEXR/ImfHuf.cpp#L874" target="_blank">https://github.com/AcademySoftwareFoundation/openexr/blob/1c0d8f7703da1555378bcf7357b9d2d898246d59/src/lib/OpenEXR/ImfHuf.cpp#L874</a></span>
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-799356435187236894" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="799356435187236894">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="14-Jan-21 11:17 AM">11:17</div>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">i think this is probably one of the worst pieces of code i've ever had to work with</span>
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="14-Jan-21 11:17 AM">11:17</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">it pretty much fails in every department as far as i'm concerned</span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="bvisness#0001" data-user-id="132715550571888640">bvisness</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 11:17 AM</span>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Wow, that's a special case. Huge comments, and tiny variable names.</span>
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<span class="chatlog__edited-timestamp" title="14-Jan-21 11:17 AM">(edited)</span>
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<div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(244, 127, 255)" title="rexollycounty#5648">rexollycounty</div>
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<span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '799356372264419360')">
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<a href="https://github.com/AcademySoftwareFoundation/openexr/blob/1c0d8f7703da1555378bcf7357b9d2d898246d59/src/lib/OpenEXR/ImfHuf.cpp#L874" target="_blank">https://github.com/AcademySoftwareFoundation/openexr/blob/1c0d8f7703da1555378bcf7357b9d2d898246d59/src/lib/OpenEXR/ImfHuf.cpp#L874</a> </span>
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="bumbread27#9116" data-user-id="456226577798135808">bumbread</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 11:17 AM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">what's <span class="chatlog__markdown-pre chatlog__markdown-pre--inline">i:</span></span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="bumbread27#9116" data-user-id="456226577798135808">bumbread</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 11:17 AM</span>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">oh got it</span>
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="14-Jan-21 11:17 AM">11:17</div>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">input/output</span>
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<img class="chatlog__reference-avatar" src="files/1963eacbf364164efce1c597dc66aeab-E6901.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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<div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="bvisness#0001">bvisness</div>
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<div class="chatlog__reference-content">
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<span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '799356555543314473')">
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Wow, that's a special case. Huge comments, and tiny variable names. </span>
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<span class="chatlog__reference-edited-timestamp" title="14-Jan-21 11:17 AM">(edited)</span>
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="bumbread27#9116" data-user-id="456226577798135808">bumbread</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 11:18 AM</span>
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<div class="chatlog__attachment " onclick="">
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<a href="files/unknown-1B494.png" target="_blank">
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<img class="chatlog__attachment-media" src="files/unknown-1B494.png" alt="Image attachment" title="Image: unknown.png (1.94 KB)" loading="lazy">
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</a>
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="14-Jan-21 11:18 AM">11:18</div>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">ha</span>
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<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/e2d8d41642ab506856842f35a14d0182-CDCD1.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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</div>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(244, 127, 255)" title="rexollycounty#5648" data-user-id="208957354287431682">rexollycounty</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 11:18 AM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">i had to port this to gpu and so i just had to ignore everything in the code because it was either misleading or just wrong</span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="bvisness#0001" data-user-id="132715550571888640">bvisness</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 11:19 AM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I guess naming is another aspect of readability that we could discuss</span>
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="14-Jan-21 11:19 AM">11:19</div>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">although I'm not sure it relates to skimmability at all</span>
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="14-Jan-21 11:19 AM">11:19</div>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">maybe within a function, but that's a less interesting level to me</span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(244, 127, 255)" title="rexollycounty#5648" data-user-id="208957354287431682">rexollycounty</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 11:19 AM</span>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">it definitely meant i could make zero assumptions about the code</span>
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-799357165277020191" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="799357165277020191">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="bumbread27#9116" data-user-id="456226577798135808">bumbread</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 11:19 AM</span>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Yes. I have experience of naming every variable with underscores in my homework assignment for my programming course. I named the first variable <span class="chatlog__markdown-pre chatlog__markdown-pre--inline">_</span>, the next one <span class="chatlog__markdown-pre chatlog__markdown-pre--inline">__</span> &c.</span>
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<div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="" title="bumbread27#9116">bumbread</div>
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<div class="chatlog__reference-content">
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<span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '799357165277020191')">
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Yes. I have experience of naming every variable with underscores in my homework assignment for my programming course. I named the first variable <span class="chatlog__markdown-pre chatlog__markdown-pre--inline">_</span>, the next one <span class="chatlog__markdown-pre chatlog__markdown-pre--inline">__</span> &c. </span>
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="bumbread27#9116" data-user-id="456226577798135808">bumbread</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 11:20 AM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">The effect of this, is that you have to do A LOT of extra state keeping in order to understand your code. I gave up writing insertion sort algorithm that way, I had to do normal naming</span>
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="14-Jan-21 11:20 AM">11:20</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">That's about the extremes.</span>
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="ratchetfreak#1181" data-user-id="269884325082693632">ratchetfreak</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 11:20 AM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">cryptic names are a pain</span>
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/0-EB806.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="AsafGartner#0955" data-user-id="239737951410454528">AsafGartner</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 11:20 AM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Well, you don't want to send the reader all over place.</span>
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-799357254721470524" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="799357254721470524">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/6d80b92b4cf9313aeb1c332b65c48f63-50810.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="Aelthalyste#1159" data-user-id="382979775909855233">Aelthalyste</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 11:20 AM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">You shouldnt be reading names or such things when skimming, that's just reading the code</span>
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-799357259503239169" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="799357259503239169">
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<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/0-EB806.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="AsafGartner#0955" data-user-id="239737951410454528">AsafGartner</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 11:20 AM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">A good upload has good references.</span>
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-799357720499060737" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="799357720499060737">
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<div class="chatlog__reference-symbol"></div>
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<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/e2d8d41642ab506856842f35a14d0182-CDCD1.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__reference">
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<img class="chatlog__reference-avatar" src="files/0-EB806.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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<div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="" title="bumbread27#9116">bumbread</div>
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<div class="chatlog__reference-content">
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<span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '799357360908927007')">
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The effect of this, is that you have to do A LOT of extra state keeping in order to understand your code. I gave up writing insertion sort algorithm that way, I had to do normal naming </span>
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(244, 127, 255)" title="rexollycounty#5648" data-user-id="208957354287431682">rexollycounty</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 11:22 AM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">that's a good way of putting it. when reading cryptic vairable names, having seemingly unrelated names makes it hard to keep track of</span>
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-799358297869910115" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="799358297869910115">
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<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/1963eacbf364164efce1c597dc66aeab-E6901.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="bvisness#0001" data-user-id="132715550571888640">bvisness</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 11:24 AM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">The counterpoint, perhaps, is that sometimes a name is used so frequently, or has a meaning so obvious, that a longer name would make the code less concise. Like having a sentence be too wordy.</span>
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-799358399400771644" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="799358399400771644">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/1-B2132.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="ratchetfreak#1181" data-user-id="269884325082693632">ratchetfreak</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 11:24 AM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">like i for an int index</span>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-group">
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-799358422826614784" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="799358422826614784">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/6d80b92b4cf9313aeb1c332b65c48f63-50810.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="Aelthalyste#1159" data-user-id="382979775909855233">Aelthalyste</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 11:24 AM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I think naming and frequency of variable is highly dependent</span>
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</div>
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</div>
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-799358493798563850" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="799358493798563850">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="14-Jan-21 11:25 AM">11:25</div>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Like, you know what's an i in for loop, its used everywhere</span>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-799358579873677323" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="799358579873677323">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="14-Jan-21 11:25 AM">11:25</div>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">but you dont want some cryptic name in just one specific point-line</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-group">
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-799358621251010561" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="799358621251010561">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/1-B2132.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="ratchetfreak#1181" data-user-id="269884325082693632">ratchetfreak</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 11:25 AM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">in my work project I have a set of 3 letter variables that I use all over the place and every time I use them they always mean the same</span>
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<div class="chatlog__message-group">
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-799358636635324439" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="799358636635324439">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/6d80b92b4cf9313aeb1c332b65c48f63-50810.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="Aelthalyste#1159" data-user-id="382979775909855233">Aelthalyste</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 11:25 AM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">You want it's name to express what it represents, what it means</span>
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<span class="chatlog__edited-timestamp" title="14-Jan-21 11:26 AM">(edited)</span>
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</div>
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</div><div class="chatlog__message-group" style="">
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-799358758429261824" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="799358758429261824">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="ratchetfreak#1181" data-user-id="269884325082693632">ratchetfreak</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 11:26 AM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">though really that is more of a result of having started that project in a deep OOP mindset</span>
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<div class="chatlog__message-group">
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-799358738364104774" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="799358738364104774">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/e2d8d41642ab506856842f35a14d0182-CDCD1.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(244, 127, 255)" title="rexollycounty#5648" data-user-id="208957354287431682">rexollycounty</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 11:26 AM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">casey has a <span class="chatlog__markdown-pre chatlog__markdown-pre--inline">LockedAddAndReturnPreviousValue</span> in handmade ray and i've always wondered whether it's too long</span>
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-799359192393449476" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="799359192393449476">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<div class="chatlog__reference-symbol"></div>
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<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/0-EB806.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__reference">
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<img class="chatlog__reference-avatar" src="files/e2d8d41642ab506856842f35a14d0182-CDCD1.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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<div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(244, 127, 255)" title="rexollycounty#5648">rexollycounty</div>
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<div class="chatlog__reference-content">
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<span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '799358738364104774')">
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casey has a <span class="chatlog__markdown-pre chatlog__markdown-pre--inline">LockedAddAndReturnPreviousValue</span> in handmade ray and i've always wondered whether it's too long </span>
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</div>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="AsafGartner#0955" data-user-id="239737951410454528">AsafGartner</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 11:28 AM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Sounds like a trustworthy name.</span>
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-799360678992543794" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="799360678992543794">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/6d80b92b4cf9313aeb1c332b65c48f63-50810.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="Aelthalyste#1159" data-user-id="382979775909855233">Aelthalyste</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 11:33 AM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">on tangent, I don't think name length or convention is the real bottleneck about reading-understanding code. They mean to represent things in larger scale, for few blocks. Context they belong to should be enough for you to identify what's happening in relevant block-function</span>
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-799360881111597066" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="799360881111597066">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/1-B2132.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="ratchetfreak#1181" data-user-id="269884325082693632">ratchetfreak</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 11:34 AM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">there is such a thing as too long though</span>
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<div class="chatlog__message-group">
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-799361020434055229" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="799361020434055229">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/6d80b92b4cf9313aeb1c332b65c48f63-50810.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="Aelthalyste#1159" data-user-id="382979775909855233">Aelthalyste</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 11:35 AM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Let's say, if you have something like 500 line function, having some 3 letter name is not actual bottleneck here, or 30. 500 lines itself can bring too much friction</span>
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<div class="chatlog__message-group">
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-799361026335309904" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="799361026335309904">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/0-EB806.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="AsafGartner#0955" data-user-id="239737951410454528">AsafGartner</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 11:35 AM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Sometimes I just do <span class="chatlog__markdown-pre chatlog__markdown-pre--inline">short = veryLongName</span> and use <span class="chatlog__markdown-pre chatlog__markdown-pre--inline">short</span> in that specific area of the code.</span>
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-799361278271291463" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="799361278271291463">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<div class="chatlog__reference-symbol"></div>
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<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/6d80b92b4cf9313aeb1c332b65c48f63-50810.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__reference">
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<img class="chatlog__reference-avatar" src="files/0-EB806.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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<div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="AsafGartner#0955">AsafGartner</div>
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<div class="chatlog__reference-content">
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<span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '799361026335309904')">
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Sometimes I just do <span class="chatlog__markdown-pre chatlog__markdown-pre--inline">short = veryLongName</span> and use <span class="chatlog__markdown-pre chatlog__markdown-pre--inline">short</span> in that specific area of the code. </span>
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</div>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="Aelthalyste#1159" data-user-id="382979775909855233">Aelthalyste</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 11:36 AM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Yes, variables-names should have strict contexts to be compared.</span>
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<div class="chatlog__message-group">
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-799361544587575306" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="799361544587575306">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/0-EB806.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="AsafGartner#0955" data-user-id="239737951410454528">AsafGartner</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 11:37 AM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">And the length of the variable name should probably match the length of the context.</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-group">
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-799361649957142558" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="799361649957142558">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/0-EB806.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="bumbread27#9116" data-user-id="456226577798135808">bumbread</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 11:37 AM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Agree</span>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-799361705707831316" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="799361705707831316">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="14-Jan-21 11:38 AM">11:38</div>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">It is easier to keep track of short names in short scopes</span>
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</div>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-group">
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-799361760930824252" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="799361760930824252">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<div class="chatlog__reference-symbol"></div>
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<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/6d80b92b4cf9313aeb1c332b65c48f63-50810.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__reference">
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<img class="chatlog__reference-avatar" src="files/0-EB806.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
|
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<div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="AsafGartner#0955">AsafGartner</div>
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<div class="chatlog__reference-content">
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<span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '799361544587575306')">
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And the length of the variable name should probably match the length of the context. </span>
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</div>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="Aelthalyste#1159" data-user-id="382979775909855233">Aelthalyste</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 11:38 AM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Exactly</span>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-group">
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-799361770510745630" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="799361770510745630">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/0-EB806.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="AsafGartner#0955" data-user-id="239737951410454528">AsafGartner</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 11:38 AM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">You wouldn't want to juggle two-letter variables for 500 lines.</span>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-group">
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-799361783705108592" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="799361783705108592">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/0-EB806.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="bumbread27#9116" data-user-id="456226577798135808">bumbread</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 11:38 AM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Also adds a layer of style conventions</span>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-group">
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-799362122181509130" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="799362122181509130">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/0-EB806.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="AsafGartner#0955" data-user-id="239737951410454528">AsafGartner</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 11:39 AM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I mean, it's more or less like a CPU cache.</span>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-799362185448259605" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="799362185448259605">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="14-Jan-21 11:39 AM">11:39</div>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">If the name of the variable doesn't make the usage very clear, you'll have to look it up.</span>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-799362211100491777" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="799362211100491777">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="14-Jan-21 11:40 AM">11:40</div>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">How far up do you have to scroll in order to look it up?</span>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-799362239651774484" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="799362239651774484">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="14-Jan-21 11:40 AM">11:40</div>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">If it's too much, the name is too short.</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-group">
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-799362287013593118" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="799362287013593118">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/6d80b92b4cf9313aeb1c332b65c48f63-50810.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="Aelthalyste#1159" data-user-id="382979775909855233">Aelthalyste</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 11:40 AM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">In short contextes, its L1 cache anyway</span>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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</div>
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-799362308106616875" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="799362308106616875">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="14-Jan-21 11:40 AM">11:40</div>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">and you are probably using registers</span>
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<span class="chatlog__edited-timestamp" title="14-Jan-21 11:40 AM">(edited)</span>
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</div>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-group">
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-799362548813004841" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="799362548813004841">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/0-EB806.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="bumbread27#9116" data-user-id="456226577798135808">bumbread</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 11:41 AM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">By the way remember how i told that confusing names tend to do extra state-keeping for the mind?
|
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I think that's actually good if you have short names for short, more specific pieces of the code, and longer names for the less specific pieces.
|
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Since your mind will be actually into reading the code rather than skimming on the low level</span>
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</div>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-group">
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-799362931892551768" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="799362931892551768">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="AsafGartner#0955" data-user-id="239737951410454528">AsafGartner</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 11:42 AM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I think that in many cases reading longer variable names is "free".</span>
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="14-Jan-21 11:43 AM">11:43</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Writing them is not as free.</span>
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="14-Jan-21 11:43 AM">11:43</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Or if you have several of them in a single line that it runs off the screen, that's not free either.</span>
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="14-Jan-21 11:43 AM">11:43</div>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">But in most cases it's free to read.</span>
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-799363154747588670" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="799363154747588670">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="14-Jan-21 11:43 AM">11:43</div>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">So I would optimize Dion-like systems to make writing cheaper, but expand the names for reading.</span>
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-799363195428274208" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="799363195428274208">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/0-EB806.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="bumbread27#9116" data-user-id="456226577798135808">bumbread</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 11:43 AM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">but on the other hand most likely you'll be having more of specific code than abstract code, which makes it so that you are rarely typing long names</span>
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-799363268346118164" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="799363268346118164">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="14-Jan-21 11:44 AM">11:44</div>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Making it less expensive to write long names in long contexts (?)</span>
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-799363739143897138" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="799363739143897138">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/1-B2132.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(46, 204, 113)" title="ratchetfreak#1181" data-user-id="269884325082693632">ratchetfreak</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 11:46 AM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">autocompletion, maybe based on initials, prefix, manual alias, etc.</span>
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</div>
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-799364203752194048" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="799364203752194048">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="14-Jan-21 11:47 AM">11:47</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">highlighting itself is going to be a cost</span>
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-799364293699043380" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="799364293699043380">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="14-Jan-21 11:48 AM">11:48</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">and the tradeoff balance is going to be different case to case</span>
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<div class="chatlog__reactions">
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<div class="chatlog__reaction" title="thumbsup">
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<img class="chatlog__emoji chatlog__emoji--small" alt="👍" src="files/1f44d-B3F5F.svg" loading="lazy">
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<span class="chatlog__reaction-count">1</span>
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-799364713124724817" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="799364713124724817">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/0-EB806.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="AsafGartner#0955" data-user-id="239737951410454528">AsafGartner</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 11:49 AM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Once you introduce dynamic information you'll need a more powerful editor.</span>
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</div>
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</div>
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-799364755176947742" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="799364755176947742">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="14-Jan-21 11:50 AM">11:50</div>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">So it's not entirely a code thing.</span>
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</div>
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</div>
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-799364876899975169" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="799364876899975169">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="14-Jan-21 11:50 AM">11:50</div>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Though I hear people liked the feature in the Kindle that reminds you of character's backstory when you highlight them.</span>
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</div>
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-799364906859495454" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="799364906859495454">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="14-Jan-21 11:50 AM">11:50</div>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">So a similar feature would probably be useful.</span>
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</div>
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-799365610030497873" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="799365610030497873">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="14-Jan-21 11:53 AM">11:53</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Do you think future editors/system would dramatically change the way we approach reading code?</span>
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</div>
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-799365700761681940" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="799365700761681940">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="14-Jan-21 11:53 AM">11:53</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">The idea of slices in Dion sounds very interesting, but without trying it out it's hard to say.</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-group">
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-799366334470422528" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="799366334470422528">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<div class="chatlog__reference-symbol"></div>
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<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/6d80b92b4cf9313aeb1c332b65c48f63-50810.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__reference">
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<img class="chatlog__reference-avatar" src="files/0-EB806.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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<div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="AsafGartner#0955">AsafGartner</div>
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<div class="chatlog__reference-content">
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<span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '799365610030497873')">
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Do you think future editors/system would dramatically change the way we approach reading code? </span>
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</div>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="Aelthalyste#1159" data-user-id="382979775909855233">Aelthalyste</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 11:56 AM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I mean, if intellisense(or something close to that) would be 100x faster, they might be</span>
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<div class="chatlog__message-group">
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-799366890228023306" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="799366890228023306">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/0-EB806.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="AsafGartner#0955" data-user-id="239737951410454528">AsafGartner</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 11:58 AM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I think it would be interesting to see what sort of effect it would have on code structure.</span>
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-799366941185802300" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="799366941185802300">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="14-Jan-21 11:58 AM">11:58</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Maybe you wouldn't mind spreading code around if you could recall it into a single slice?</span>
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-799367568736780298" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="799367568736780298">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="Aelthalyste#1159" data-user-id="382979775909855233">Aelthalyste</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 12:01 PM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">So there was a good point stb put in this video <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAhWIO1Ra6M" target="_blank">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAhWIO1Ra6M</a>, IDE might help you shortcutting to some paths</span>
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<span class="chatlog__edited-timestamp" title="14-Jan-21 12:05 PM">(edited)</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-group">
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-799368322814312511" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="799368322814312511">
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<div class="chatlog__message">
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<div class="chatlog__message-aside">
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<img class="chatlog__avatar" src="files/0-EB806.png" alt="Avatar" loading="lazy">
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="AsafGartner#0955" data-user-id="239737951410454528">AsafGartner</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 12:04 PM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Yeah, it would be interesting to see how it all works out. It's really hard to predict that stuff in advance.</span>
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</div>
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<div id="chatlog__message-container-799368355446128641" class="chatlog__message-container " data-message-id="799368355446128641">
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="14-Jan-21 12:04 PM">12:04</div>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Another thing I wanted to talk about, and another positive thing you can do: I think code appearance is a metric all on its own. It's possible to make a complicated piece of code appear simple by hiding everything behind far-away functions/classes, and you can make a simple piece of code appear complicated with unnecessary indirection. Instead you should make your code appear as complicated as it actually is.</span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="Aelthalyste#1159" data-user-id="382979775909855233">Aelthalyste</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 12:06 PM</span>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I was curious when we were going to get to this</span>
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="14-Jan-21 12:06 PM">12:06</div>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I want to start from file level appearance</span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="bumbread27#9116" data-user-id="456226577798135808">bumbread</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 12:07 PM</span>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I can describe how stb stretchy buffer works in 3-10 lines of text, but the code for that looks more complicated than that.</span>
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="14-Jan-21 12:08 PM">12:08</div>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Most of the code is the macro hacks though</span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="Aelthalyste#1159" data-user-id="382979775909855233">Aelthalyste</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 12:08 PM</span>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I think you should have very strict context switches between files</span>
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<div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="" title="Aelthalyste#1159">Aelthalyste</div>
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<span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '799369309909811283')">
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I think you should have very strict context switches between files </span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="bumbread27#9116" data-user-id="456226577798135808">bumbread</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 12:08 PM</span>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">What do you mean by context switches?</span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="Aelthalyste#1159" data-user-id="382979775909855233">Aelthalyste</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 12:10 PM</span>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Like, solving kinematic equations and dumping all things to a file</span>
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="14-Jan-21 12:11 PM">12:11</div>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Solving kinematics involves multiple things, mostly math stuff. You don't want to end up reading file <div class="chatlog__markdown-pre chatlog__markdown-pre--multiline nohighlight">FileOps.cpp</div> at the end of the result</span>
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<div class="chatlog__reference-author" style="" title="bumbread27#9116">bumbread</div>
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<div class="chatlog__reference-content">
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<span class="chatlog__reference-link" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '799369089515913266')">
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I can describe how stb stretchy buffer works in 3-10 lines of text, but the code for that looks more complicated than that. </span>
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="AsafGartner#0955" data-user-id="239737951410454528">AsafGartner</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 12:11 PM</span>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">In the case of stb stretchy, I think there's an element of expectation and also an element of trusting the author. I know it's compressed, so I know it will take longer than usual to read what look like a few lines of code, and I trust Sean to not waste my time with something that's just a big mess.</span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="Aelthalyste#1159" data-user-id="382979775909855233">Aelthalyste</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 12:11 PM</span>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">or, <div class="chatlog__markdown-pre chatlog__markdown-pre--multiline nohighlight">kinematics.cpp</div> shouldnt make indirection to must-read code that lies in <div class="chatlog__markdown-pre chatlog__markdown-pre--multiline nohighlight">fileops.cpp</div></span>
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<span class="chatlog__edited-timestamp" title="14-Jan-21 12:12 PM">(edited)</span>
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="14-Jan-21 12:14 PM">12:14</div>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">because at the top level, files significiantly helps skimming. You can choose them as very top level entry for a codebase</span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="AsafGartner#0955" data-user-id="239737951410454528">AsafGartner</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 12:15 PM</span>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Right. You want to direct the reader to the right place, and not have them search for a needle in a haystack.</span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="Aelthalyste#1159" data-user-id="382979775909855233">Aelthalyste</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 12:15 PM</span>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">they can make references to each other, but they should be self-contained enough to be understanable</span>
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="14-Jan-21 12:15 PM">12:15</div>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Even simple point like this is misused so much</span>
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="14-Jan-21 12:16 PM">12:16</div>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Like recent bug Casey discovered on stream (i dont remember program's name, OBS? was some video capture program)</span>
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<span class="chatlog__edited-timestamp" title="14-Jan-21 12:17 PM">(edited)</span>
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="14-Jan-21 12:17 PM">12:17</div>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Same context, exactly same problem's solution is directed to different files. Which can be just 30 line function</span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="AsafGartner#0955" data-user-id="239737951410454528">AsafGartner</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 12:18 PM</span>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Right. I saw that one, but unfortunately it's not on youtube.</span>
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="14-Jan-21 12:18 PM">12:18</div>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">The structure of OBS is one of the things that prompted this fishbowl idea.</span>
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="14-Jan-21 12:20 PM">12:20</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">It gives the impression that everything has a right place, and each part is simple, but also that there are many parts, but actually it's juggling several pieces of very important data from different places, and it makes it very easy to miss the important details.</span>
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<span class="chatlog__edited-timestamp" title="14-Jan-21 12:32 PM">(edited)</span>
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<div class="chatlog__message-primary">
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<div class="chatlog__header">
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="Aelthalyste#1159" data-user-id="382979775909855233">Aelthalyste</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 12:20 PM</span>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">File switches are like warnings to me, be aware that you are going different world, not that it's harmful, just be aware</span>
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<span class="chatlog__edited-timestamp" title="14-Jan-21 12:21 PM">(edited)</span>
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="14-Jan-21 12:23 PM">12:23</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">and about hiding things behind classes-methods-private members, I think that is discussed long enough in that server, even in code-readability section</span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="AsafGartner#0955" data-user-id="239737951410454528">AsafGartner</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 12:25 PM</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I think that's all I have to say on this topic. Any last notes?</span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(244, 127, 255)" title="rexollycounty#5648" data-user-id="208957354287431682">rexollycounty</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 12:26 PM</span>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">that's all from me too</span>
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<span class="chatlog__edited-timestamp" title="14-Jan-21 12:26 PM">(edited)</span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="" title="Aelthalyste#1159" data-user-id="382979775909855233">Aelthalyste</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 12:27 PM</span>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">I'm just tired</span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="AsafGartner#0955" data-user-id="239737951410454528">AsafGartner</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 12:27 PM</span>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">:)</span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="bvisness#0001" data-user-id="132715550571888640">bvisness</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 12:28 PM</span>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">This was a good conversation, I think we hit on some interesting points</span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="AsafGartner#0955" data-user-id="239737951410454528">AsafGartner</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 12:29 PM</span>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">So that's a wrap on Fishbowl #5. Thank you all for joining us.
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You can go to <a href="https://github.com/AsafGartner/hmn_fishbowl/discussions" target="_blank">https://github.com/AsafGartner/hmn_fishbowl/discussions</a> to vote on the next fishbowl topic and suggest new ones.</span>
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<a class="chatlog__embed-title-link" href="https://github.com/AsafGartner/hmn_fishbowl/discussions">
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<div class="chatlog__markdown chatlog__markdown-preserve">AsafGartner/hmn_fishbowl</div>
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</a>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__embed-description">
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<div class="chatlog__markdown chatlog__markdown-preserve">Contribute to AsafGartner/hmn_fishbowl development by creating an account on GitHub.</div>
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<a class="chatlog__embed-thumbnail-link" href="files/463270-0002E">
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</a>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="bvisness#0001" data-user-id="132715550571888640">bvisness</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 12:30 PM</span>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Future readers, if you're interested in reading the <span class="chatlog__markdown-mention">#fishbowl-audience</span> conversation too, see <a href="https://discord.com/channels/239737791225790464/708458209131757598/799323988769636463" onclick="scrollToMessage(event, '799323988769636463')">https://discord.com/channels/239737791225790464/708458209131757598/799323988769636463</a>. There was some great stuff over there!</span>
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<span class="chatlog__edited-timestamp" title="14-Jan-21 12:40 PM">(edited)</span>
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</div>
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<div class="chatlog__short-timestamp" title="14-Jan-21 12:31 PM">12:31</div>
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">Thanks all for participating!</span>
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<span class="chatlog__author" style="color: rgb(250, 186, 71)" title="bvisness#0001" data-user-id="132715550571888640">bvisness</span>
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<span class="chatlog__timestamp">Jan 14, 2021 12:45 PM</span>
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<div class="chatlog__content chatlog__markdown">
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<span class="chatlog__markdown-preserve">If you would like to read the whole conversation from the beginning, check the pinned messages. There are also several other conversations for you to read if you're interested!</span>
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