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+Topic: How to design flexible software
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+ We all want software to be flexible. We want it to work for lots of different users, we want it to adapt to different workflows. We had a fishbowl about how to design to avoid configuration, and you should read it. (See the pinned messages in #fishbowl!) But when you can't avoid configuration, how do you do it well?
+
+And furthermore, if we want our software to be flexible, for users to be able to adapt it to their needs, what options do we have besides configuration? What other ways are there to make software flexible?
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+And what about extending software? Flexibility is one thing, but some software can be customized so far that it's practically a new program. To what extent is this desirable? And how do we design these extension systems well?
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+ and @rxi, general wizard and creator of the Lite editor, microui, and many other tools
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+ sorry 
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+ at the risk of raising some eyebrows, I think it's hard to argue against the success of wordpress
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+ I know that composition is a thing that @Allen4th has talked about oh yep he's typing now 
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+ @Voran mentions game modding
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+But as @nakst mentioned, it seems that not many people have really gone to that extent with 4coder. It seems like a most users aren't actually interested in doing that much work. So I'm curious how we start to shift toward the centralized control side in a way that works well.
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+ This is something I've been thinking about with Essence: how much of the system internals should be exposed by the API for applications to customize on behalf of the user? Should it be possible to say, install an application that changes how the native GUI textbox works? There seem to be a lot of disadvantages to doing so. Firstly, there is the concern of how inter-plugin interactions will behave, and what will happen when the system internals are changed, that you can see examples of discussed on The Old New Thing blog, and I recall were also discussed in Allen's HmN podcast wrt 4coder. Secondly, the experience of using a plugin will often be inferior to if the functionality it provides were integrated directly in the core system; and since Essence is open source, if there were a really good plugin that replaced some functionality for the better -- surely it would be better to just make those features part of the operating system in the first place! And finally, there is the matter discussed just above, that a lot of people don't really want to customize their applications or system; they just want it to work!
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+This is something I've been thinking about with Essence: how much of the system internals should be exposed by the API for applications to customize on behalf of the user? Should it be possible to say, install an application that changes how the native GUI textbox works? There seem to be a lot of disadvantages to doing so. Firstly, there is the concern of how inter-plugin interactions will behave, and what will happen when the system internals are changed, that you can see examples of discussed on The Old New Thing blog, and I recall were also discussed in Allen's HmN podcast wrt 4coder. Secondly, the experience of using a plugin will often be inferior to if the functionality it provides were integrated directly in the core system; and since Essence is open source, if there were a really good plugin that replaced some functionality for the better -- surely it would be better to just make those features part of the operating system in the first place! And finally, there is the matter discussed just above, that a lot of people don't really want to customize their applications or system; they just want it to work!
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+ this is precisely where i think WordPress is a good model to follow
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+you never modify core directly but you allow actions or filters to change the behavior after the fact
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+ Could you explain how this works in more detail? I have not used WordPress before at all
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+ and then WP actions/filters etc. provide ways for plugins to interpose on those "board game rules"
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+Although most plugins work independently from each other.
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+ plugin conflicts are very much a thing, unfortunately
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+@Voran mentions game modding
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+ So, about modding, I guess what I'm most curious about is how a game creator who wants to allow modding should approach it. I've seen a lot of approaches.
+
+Minecraft, as the biggest example, started out without mod support, but was easily able to be modded because it was made in java and the jar file was easily modified. In recent years, another method of user-side configuration which is extremely similar to mods is that of Datapacks, which allows you to change the input data to the game (but not add additional functionality in the way that mods do). Other games actively support modding, with examples such as Starbound using Lua or Space Engineers using C#. So there seem to be a lot of ways that people have approached mods.
+
+But while the desire for players to add to the game seems to be there, from both developers and their communities, I've noticed that a lot of games which are designed to be modded fall short of the mark. It's certainly difficult to mod compiled games in languages like C++, especially without the source code, but it also opens up avenues of modding that typical modding apis don't actually present, because they effectively modify the game that's running rather than just providing a bunch of input. So the best situations for modding end up being those like minecraft, where nobody put any effort into making the game extensible, but the game is easy enough to modify due to the structure of how it was built.
+
+So I'm wondering what ways people would approach the problem of trying to make a game which is compiled in a language like C++, but also able to be modified in ways which are mutually compatible between different mods, and powerful enough to support game-changing behaviors that don't require the game author to anticipate everything that people might want to do.
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+An interesting distinction though is that in something like WordPress, developers are primarily making tools for end users. Whereas with something like 4coder there isn't really any end user beyond the developer.
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+ Not sure id agree with that, depending on the definition of end user
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+ I think this connects back to the observation that most of these systems are in some way linked to making content
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+ and there is some real truth to that because I can't open this thread in a separate window to view it alongside the audience conversation 
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+I was also interested in this utility: https://www.nirsoft.net/utils/sysexp.html, which lets you extract out the data from a standard Win32 list view and save it as a XML.
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+ That's interesting, and I was actually pondering browser extensions as I prepped for this too. That's a world where lots of things are possible because applications use a common document structure.
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+The ability for an application's data to connect with other applications is pretty big as well though - it makes the application much more flexible in terms of workflows that use it
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+ This is why data formats are key - deeply flexible software is made possible by having input/output data that is well defined and commonly used.
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+ 1
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+I think discussing user interfaces of software is quite relevant to all this. One thing that is commonly brought up as an argument in favour of command line tools is that it is often very simple to compose ("pipe") applications to achieve a greater purpose. But with graphical user interfaces the axis of flexibility is quite different: instead the user is treated to things like customizable keyboard shortcuts, or customizable toolbars, menus, etc.
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+ You mention customizable keyboard shortcuts, toolbars, menus, but those are actually quite rare these days
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+ people are gonna be mad when the takeaway from this fishbowl is "use retained-mode guis" 
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+ See also: https://twitter.com/rsnous/status/1362294053639909380
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+ (Sorry for going on a bit of a UX tangent, there 
)
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+ )
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+ and you just drag a lua script onto the application window, the OS does the rest
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+ 1
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+so then each Essence app would expose some data structure (including functions) to the OS as scriptable
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+ it seems though like much of the power of that comes from ambient things about the app, and not extra work on the developer's part
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+ Apple has had their Automator thing forever and it never seems to get much use or support
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+I really like the concept of the user having their own buttons in a toolbar, or their own keys on a keyboard.
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+ how would you consider this to be different from apple's touchbar?
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+how would you consider this to be different from apple's touchbar?
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+ I was under the impression that the contents of the touchbar were primarily restricted by the application developer?
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+I was under the impression that the contents of the touchbar were primarily restricted by the application developer?
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+ i believe there were tools available to customize the bars to run any application or macro of your choosing
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+This is why data formats are key - deeply flexible software is made possible by having input/output data that is well defined and commonly used.
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+ Since you're working on Dion, could you explain some of the reasons why it can be important to have a common data format to share across different domains?
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+maybe if you want to make really flexible software, you just need to think about providing specific affordances at all levels
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+ Kind of like how Windows has the control panel for the end-user settings, and then the registry for more power user stuff.
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+ ...we might need a drawing for this
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+ Right. Basically a plugin "is" a program. I think @nakst could chime in to tell me if this perspective really makes sense. But I tend to see an OS as: a program that knows how hardware works and has a strong plugin system - those plugins are the userspace applications.
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+ i could see that as an effectual metaphor 
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+Have we touched on the idea that flexibility in software tends to be a shift of the burden of correctly designing the software from the developer onto the user? (sorry, got here a bit late)
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+ this was indeed my original thesis on the previous fishbowl about "configuration", that it is usually an excuse to avoid design responsibility
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+ ah. I started typing some stuff but it sounds like it might have all been covered in that discussion in that case 
I don't want to end up rehashing it all
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+ I don't want to end up rehashing it all
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+ I think, perhaps, there's a difference here between neglecting design responsibility vs it being out of scope
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+whereas if I make an application UI with a bunch of widgets and I don't try to reason about how those widgets should be laid out, then I am leaving a "hole" in my design
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+ can't it be unclear where that line is? Even with this example it is a user choice in a lot of software -- eg. being able to rearrange the panels in photoshop, or re-order the columns on the list view of the task manager. Should I be allowing the user to change the UI to that degree?
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+the user can re-arrange photoshop, but photoshop has a set of initial opinions
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+ that it can be changed from the default changes the default itself, though. How much thought and time and research was put into the default configuration? If I open photoshop and move a panel somewhere because it's what I was used to in paint.net, though this was an initial convenience this could end up being detrimental in the long term to the general workflow. This feels in general an issue with flexibility; in that the user might be too eager to change things rather than getting used to the defaults, and presumably there was a good reason those defaults were picked
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+that it can be changed from the default changes the default itself, though. How much thought and time and research was put into the default configuration? If I open photoshop and move a panel somewhere because it's what I was used to in paint.net, though this was an initial convenience this could end up being detrimental in the long term to the general workflow. This feels in general an issue with flexibility; in that the user might be too eager to change things rather than getting used to the defaults, and presumably there was a good reason those defaults were picked
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+ I agree that when you add flexibility you add the temptation to do "noise" edits
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+pointless micro-changes that make your setup non-standard but not any more useful to you
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+ I feel there are ways you can constrain this with e.g window docking, tabs, that kind of thing. Iβve seen some apps that seem to have a full internal window system for no reason, but thereβs a middle ground.
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+ so I think there's a lot of value in reducing the complexity of the input space down until it resembles the granularity of the utility you get out of changes
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+ as opposed to a blank board, a marker, and a bunch of generic pawns?
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+ that makes a lot of sense, and I always like to have more analogies
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+ we do see lots of great game ideas starting as mods instead of stuff from scratch... 
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+ I guess WP did start out with a heavier emphasis on blogs and then morphed into the more general system it is today, without losing that core idea of a blog
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